Finnished 05 Celica Pics from
05-17-2005, 02:20 PM
#51
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 62
Originally posted by defro13:
i am very sure about this, i have used smaller tweeters that dont play as low in this exact config and have always had far better success with having the ability of the tweeter to play low
i am very sure about this, i have used smaller tweeters that dont play as low in this exact config and have always had far better success with having the ability of the tweeter to play low
05-17-2005, 02:42 PM
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
some people have sucess with horns, others 3 way systems(like scotts) and other with 2 way sytems. some have success with tweets and mids in the kick panels, others with the mid in the kick and the tweet in the a pillar, other have sucess with the midbass in the k/p and the mids and tweeters in the a pillar, other with the mids in the dash an so on and so on. i am in no way disputing anything that scott has had success with, but lots of people have had great luck with all types of locations and alignments, and sp[eakers for that matter
05-17-2005, 03:32 PM
#53
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 73
I got a page on my pager!!!
LOL
In all seriousness, I have had no luck crossing a-pillar tweeters below the 6,000 Hz mark. But that doesn't mean crossing tweeters low in defro13's doesn't work. It just means that his car and his install is why there are no laws in car audio...only a bunch of theories.
I am one of these car audio nerds that has sat for hours upon hours listening to just tweeters playing. And I can say that there's very little vocal imaging cues at 6,000 Hz and above. But there is a lot of vocal cues below that, even though it is still considered "treble." For anyone curious, get your hands on some Dire Straights..."Calling Elvis" is the song; the album it comes off of is recorded hot in the male vocals up to around 6,000 Hz. If you have three vocal images in your car with this album playing, your tweeters are crossed over too low. What do I mean specifically? Well, you'll have the fundamental midrange and lower treble images coming from the center of the sound stage, but you'll hear sibilance cues and the top end of Mark Knopfler's vocals coming from each pillar...ala three images that bounces back and forth from pillar to center as his vocal changes.
I have some very specific guidance that comes from years of experimentation with pillars. I have found the higher Fs tweeters work the best, and 19mm tweeters by far outshine larger tweeters. Generally speaking, the smaller diameter tweeters have a better off-axis response and better polar response. Metal domes do act a bit differently than soft domes in the pillars, but the crosspoint I recommend don't usually chage too drastically.
People always ask me what is the best setup for their car. The answer is "I don't know...let's go and try a few things." But I will be honest, my first and favorite suggestion is point-source imaging from a pair of dedicated midrange drivers, crossed high into the treble frequencies, and tweeters on the pillars, crossed no lower than 6,000 Hz.
Scott
LOL
In all seriousness, I have had no luck crossing a-pillar tweeters below the 6,000 Hz mark. But that doesn't mean crossing tweeters low in defro13's doesn't work. It just means that his car and his install is why there are no laws in car audio...only a bunch of theories.
I am one of these car audio nerds that has sat for hours upon hours listening to just tweeters playing. And I can say that there's very little vocal imaging cues at 6,000 Hz and above. But there is a lot of vocal cues below that, even though it is still considered "treble." For anyone curious, get your hands on some Dire Straights..."Calling Elvis" is the song; the album it comes off of is recorded hot in the male vocals up to around 6,000 Hz. If you have three vocal images in your car with this album playing, your tweeters are crossed over too low. What do I mean specifically? Well, you'll have the fundamental midrange and lower treble images coming from the center of the sound stage, but you'll hear sibilance cues and the top end of Mark Knopfler's vocals coming from each pillar...ala three images that bounces back and forth from pillar to center as his vocal changes.
I have some very specific guidance that comes from years of experimentation with pillars. I have found the higher Fs tweeters work the best, and 19mm tweeters by far outshine larger tweeters. Generally speaking, the smaller diameter tweeters have a better off-axis response and better polar response. Metal domes do act a bit differently than soft domes in the pillars, but the crosspoint I recommend don't usually chage too drastically.
People always ask me what is the best setup for their car. The answer is "I don't know...let's go and try a few things." But I will be honest, my first and favorite suggestion is point-source imaging from a pair of dedicated midrange drivers, crossed high into the treble frequencies, and tweeters on the pillars, crossed no lower than 6,000 Hz.
Scott
05-17-2005, 05:16 PM
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
you words speak volumes about how speakers are all very different and how many people are able to do similar things as you doing it totally different ways, like you said there is no guidebook to great sound in car audio. many people have managed to do great things with different methods than you, as you have managed great things doing it different from them, thanks for answering your page
05-17-2005, 07:56 PM
#57
Custom installs cost quite a bit, and 50 an hr is a very good rate, the going rate here is about 75 an hr. This being a pretty straight forward install with paying attention to detail, immagine those mega installs, how much they cost.
50 bucks is a damn good install price, i do know my friend down in Ocala charges nearly 1500 US dollars for kicks alone.
Kriston
50 bucks is a damn good install price, i do know my friend down in Ocala charges nearly 1500 US dollars for kicks alone.
Kriston
05-17-2005, 09:02 PM
#58
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 43
Originally posted by defro13:
you my friend had best get a grip on what it takes to do an install that requires every wire to be techflexed and mounted every 6" as well as sound deaden the entire interior including floor and ceiling and inner and outer doors, as well as fab a new battery tray out of aluminum, powder coat it. do a nice distribution block mount. you can duct tape and half *** you jobs, we dont, and i charge 50/hour and have no problem getting it. if you could build that exact install in one week, i would supply you with the car, the shop all the materials and all the gear and 5 8 hours days to do it by yourself. im not kidding , bring it on big shot, put your skills where your mouth is chump, otherwise, you are just another big mouth that hasnt shown one ounce of your install ability but feels qualified to pass judgement on something you have no ability to do yourself, until such time as you either show something or take me up on my offer, you comments are worthless
you my friend had best get a grip on what it takes to do an install that requires every wire to be techflexed and mounted every 6" as well as sound deaden the entire interior including floor and ceiling and inner and outer doors, as well as fab a new battery tray out of aluminum, powder coat it. do a nice distribution block mount. you can duct tape and half *** you jobs, we dont, and i charge 50/hour and have no problem getting it. if you could build that exact install in one week, i would supply you with the car, the shop all the materials and all the gear and 5 8 hours days to do it by yourself. im not kidding , bring it on big shot, put your skills where your mouth is chump, otherwise, you are just another big mouth that hasnt shown one ounce of your install ability but feels qualified to pass judgement on something you have no ability to do yourself, until such time as you either show something or take me up on my offer, you comments are worthless
So a little heat and you go right to the character assassination. You're my hero Mr. Fro.
You assume I don't know install.
I thought maybe I was being tough on your installer or maybe things just move a little slower out your way so I sat down to some rationalization:
Strip interior, sound deaden, lay wire, reassemble. Make battery tray and send it out for powder coating. Hey lets be generous: 2 days.
Lay in glass bases for the KPs, cut mounting rings for the front speakers, aim tweeters and mids, mount and sorta but not really smooth and then paint the deck trim. 1 day.
Lay glass in the spare tire well, listen to front end while fresh in the morning, adjust if necessary, stretch KPs and Apillars, lay more glass in the tire well, start amp rack. 1 day.
Cover KPs, send Apillars out for covering since we can't figure out how to wrap them, finish construction in the back. 1 day.
Cover the hatch pieces, take 40seconds to hammer a hole in a grill for a processor, mount freshly covered A pillars, tie up loose ends and tune. 1 day.
Total: 6 days. Yep, I sold you short a day. My apologies.
My worthless comments I guess but I bet all the other pros are nodding their head in agreement.
Honestly though, I'm not in your market so I don't care how you sell your jobs but to pass that off as a $5000 install (or more) seems off.
And a comment about what Scott said. Very few people cross dash tweeters below 5-7000hz, as he mentioned. It splits the vocals - especially female vocals. Of course in your part of the country, things are different right?
05-17-2005, 10:05 PM
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
For a competition car though all those numbers can go out the door. Positioning and aiming speakers can eat up a budget pretty fast. Al;so ther eis all the small crap that a PROFITABLE shop has to do that are interupttions to getting work done. Then there is doing things again because you didn't think the first attempt is good enough. I mean look at the installer challenge, when they were doing the first few the cars were hacked, and that is by teams that never hack anything. To do anything right is going to take time. And if a customer wants an install that will win in a tough class they have to pay for it. I know plenty of installers who could have done a cosmetically identical job in half the time for half the price, but it wouldn't have won any trophies in USACi. If you want to complain about something complain to USACi about their rules, Dave and the boys are just doing what it takes in their opinion to win (and Dave has some actual experience with USACi, I am sure his trip opened his eyes to alot in that competition format). I mean constructive criticism is fine, in fact I am sure Dave would appreciate it, but for someone to come on here and sound jealous over prices charged without having any history, or proof they do better for less money is just obsurd.
