Going Independent, still the best way!
 

I recently had a conversation with a sales rep of mine, and he told me that there is no "loyalty" in the retail industry anymore. I was put off to say the least, and swore that I am not going to do business with this company any longer. I like the rep, and for the most part he is just being honest. You see the industry back in the early 90's gave an independent exclusive rights to certain brands in a ??? radius from their shop. Then the "FutureStops" stores moved in and all hell broke loose. margins lost, phony ads, and the volume increased, service decreased.
But things are changing once again, big box stores are in trouble, because they made everything about "best price" wins, and well the internet has been winning this battle. What about the independents, we can't compete on price, so what do we do??? We find Loyal companies, that you can't find at your average box store or internet, return to margin, spend time with the customer (because you can afford too), and give great warranty and service.

If your thinking of a new system, buy from your local independent, we don't mind your "hanging" about (at least I don't), you'll make some new friends and you'll actually find that car audio is alot more fun than just listening to a pair of speakers some guy "liked" on the internet...:)

Just my two sense (or is it cents)!

Both types of stores, independents and chains, have a place in the retail scene. I've met as many ill informed and 'shady' people at either. At the same time, some of the best, most talented, people I have met and worked with have been at either.

I advise people to find gear they like and buy it where they feel comfortable. Forget what the sign on the front of the store says.

in the industry it all comes down to customer service. price does not mean much per-say.
i would rather pay more to get a top notch install and to get top notch customer service. than to get a smoking deal and a half at it install.
i have worked at both specialty shops and the big box. And i will say you can get great customer service and a great install at both. but there is also the flip side. some sales people and some installers should just not even get out of bed.

My experience over the years as a owner of a small business, is that the best installers are the ones who have a vested interest in the business -profit sharers, partners....These are the guys who love what they do and are not worried about the paycheck at the end of the day. 5 o-clock is not quitting time, and 9 o-clock is not starting time...if there is work to be done it gets done, and if not, they find something to do....I agree some installers should just not even get out of bed.

Again, I have worked at both and seen both kinds of employees at both. An FWIW I have more of a vested interest in the box store I am currently at than the independent I last worked for. Now there was an owner that showed up 5mins before the store opened, closed exactly at 6pm, and was only there for the money.

And our paycheque is completely independent of how much work we do. I'll let that person in that shows up before the store opens or squeeze that last guy in at the end of the day because I want to, not because it is going to pay me any more. We work on cars because we like to.

Ultimately you are dealing with the person on the other side of the counter, not the sign on the front of the store. If they want and earn your business, give it to them. If they can't be bothered, or act like a douche, walk away. I buy from box stores, independents, online, wherever gives me the service I want. Sometimes it's surprising who doesn't..

Hey Paul,
How do you get good service from buying online? And if you work for a company, wouldn't you buy from them and be loyal to them??? The only reason people buy on-line is for price??? Be Honest now...

Ahhhhh so much opinion in this thread. I agree that it comes down to the person someone finds themselves dealing with. I previously worked at a "box" store in sales, and I'd like to think that I've brought over quite a few clients for the fact that I'm honest, fair, and I don't jerk people around. The other half of my job is usually helping out around the community. There's even a few local forums that I do advertise on, frequently post, and go to meets whenever possible. This is something I've encouraged the hell out of to the other employees to do as well. It can be a BIG money maker.

None-the-less, I'm happy to say that we have one of the most dedicated installers in the province.

Ah, see now, car audio is not my only vice. I evaporate a lot of my $$ into RC cars. That industry is very similar to ours and offers me great perspective into customer service, especially independents as there are not many chain hobby stores. I have four RC stores local to me and I can tell you this - most of these stores do little to earn my business.

How do I get good service online?

I want PartA. I already know where I can get it online but I truly do like to support locals so I always give them the first shot. I go into local RC store and they don't have PartA. I ask when they can have it and generally it is 4-10days away. Now, I have already checked and can get it in my hands from an online store in 3days but whatever right? So I ask them to order PartA. A week later, no PartA. Another week later, no PartA.. Another week, maybe PartA comes in. Now, whether their fault or not, I could have had PartA in 3days from the online shop. We're not talking a money difference even - in the RC world it is often less than 10% anyway - BUT the "service" that the online shop gave me was having the part and getting it to me as promised. Now I have ordered online and it been disappointing as well - guess what, that vendor no longer gets my business. They did not earn a repeat customer.

Right now today I am looking to buy a new RC kit. Online price is $299 and I can have it in 3days. No shipping costs even. The local guy is $319, but they don't have one and I have been waiting for two weeks now for one that 'is coming in any day'. Good thing for this I am choosing to be patient (I have other stuff on the go to keep me busy) - but at some point my patience will end, I will order the online kit, and my local will lose out, not because of price, but because of service. *edit* I will point out that one of the other local RC shops does have the kit I want but because the owner there always seems completely disinterested in selling anything, guess what, I am completely disinterested in buy from them. Service.

Being in sales for the last 25years at the retail, wholesale, and industrial supply levels, I live service. I don't expect unreasonable things from people but I do expect them to deliver on what they say - whether that is price, leadtime, or whatever else it may be. I do, and if I can't I damned well do whatever possible to compensate for it. I expect nothing more from anyone but will accept nothing less either - and that has nothing to do with where I am or who I am talking to. Again - at the end of the day you are dealing with people and I judge those people on what they do, not where they work.

One of the best forum comments I've read in a while.

I'm proud of you Paul,
Yeah, good answer on the service part. I'll give you a little in-side secret, the reason that it takes so long through an independent, is that the independent usually waits until he has a pre-paid order from the company he deals with...So this is where the shady comes in. I always tell my customers that I don't have it in stock, and that until I have a pre-paid, its not worth ordering just one....9 times out of 10 the part on line is very close to cost, so we are hoping that for $20 you'll get it from us, and if it breaks we can go to the supplier, and they will take care of us. Again buying product is just part of the puzzle, and if you are a do-it-yourselfer...my talents are pointless, and so is this thread.

^ I worked at a couple of independents, and did all the ordering for both, for many years. For sure I get minimum order levels and whatnot and you are a good retailer for letting people know it might not be right away if you have to wait a bit to order.

I have found that if you are straight with people, they appreciate it. I do most of our equipment ordering for the company I am with now - I always estimate delivery a little long cuz nobody complains when something comes in early ;)

Your right, Honest is the best policy. I try to have a little bit of everything in stock. For the custom order guys, they don't seem to mind waiting a bit for the gear they want. Most of the times I am the same price as on line, and the advantage customers have shopping with us, is that I spend time with the person, face to face, and help them....if you buy on line, your on your own....no offence to the do-it-yourselfer...but most of the time, they break stuff putting it in, then blame the product, and send it back where they got it, try something different (install it right this time), set it up wrong, sounds like crap, but their happy because it makes noise, and then come down to my shop to "show it off"...This happens more times than not....a little frustrating but at the "end of the day", this industry is supposed to be fun, so I like what was said earlier, buy from someone you feel comfortable.

Well lets split up the consumer base as it's unrealistic to say that customer service beats the end dollar. You have knowledgable and non knowledgable customers. As a knowledgable customer I can say that price is EVERYTHING! I don't need your customer service or warranty, however, if I wasn't doing an install by myself than I would gladly pay for a proper install. Go ask a local shop how much a kicker kx or zx 2500 is in canada... over $5000. Are you facking kidding me? What kind of moron would do that? How many have they sold? NONE! and that's why they'll die out. Nobody wants to pay that kind of price for something that MIGHT be installed correctly.

when you start putting up prices that are realistic... we'll come running.

[QUOTE=Bill@wa;667638] Most of the times I am the same price as on line, and the advantage customers have shopping with us, is that I spend time with the person, face to face, and help them.....


Lord Hug...
With all your knowledge, and understanding of the industry, you must be working at a shop? Or own a shop?? Or are you just an enthusiast??? I mean no offence but, I am right on the border, and shop in the US for my customers, and the US is having the same problem as Canadians when it comes to independent stores...they are going out of business...and BTW look for another big box store go under in the next 12 months...and this is one of the biggest!!!Price to you might be everything, but making a profit keeps the doors open. With all your knowledge you should at least know that.

I disagree that price is everything, even to the knowledgable customer. For sure, there are the people that will buy elsewhere to save a few (and sometimes more than a few) bucks but often the intangibles: being able to bounce ideas off someone, getting troubleshooting advice, hell the guy having the fuse you need when you need it today, is worth something to many more of us.

Again, I'll refer to my RC hobby - I don't often need any help or advice from anyone but it's nice to see what people have going on for projects, to buy parts I need today, just to chat sometimes, and that has value to me.

As for Kicker, and a couple of other major brands that have out of whack pricing in Canada compared to the US, don't crucify the dealers, often the price difference is due to an intermediate distributor getting their slice of the pie. Some keep their slice thin to help their dealers, others try to get fat.

I would love to be able to support local independants, but I have not found one in my neck of the woods who knows their a$$ from a hole in the gournd; its sad and embarrassing. (* I have not been to every shop in Calgary)
I ask about aero ports, I get offered aperiodic membranes. WTF?

Mr. Audio1der
Why do you want "aero ports"??? are you trying to get louder....have you been metered....you see, playing with aero ports are pointless, unless you can be metered?
BTW the reason no shops offer these ports, is bcause they are stupid expensive in Canada...I know that Liquid Audio in Red Deer carries them, talk to Mike.

Hi Bill,
Well, I need a port irregardless, and the theory (reduces turbulence at the ends) seems sound to me. But to confuse any kind of port, esp. after explaining what they are, with an aperiodic membrane??? (who uses those anymore, anyway?)
Louder would be better. My time is VERY limited so if I have to buy a port and this one claims it can help reduce turbulence and maybe be louder, I'll buy it to avoid changing out ports/additional messing around. I've never been metered; my pathic setup isn't worth it. I also worry what they think 'metering' is LOL
I do have a recone coming in from Mike and I was going to drive up to his shop to pick it up & check things out; I'll ask him- thank you!

The aero port does reduce turbulance, and port noise, although most guys use them to try to get louder, and it usually works......
Mike is a good guy to bounce ideas off of....Oh yeah "He's Independent".....

Even better - who actually tries to sell a 'pre-made' AP membrane? Yeah sure USD makes em but, really, the people looking at these should know they need to be tuned.

I live in Calgary, and Mike in Red Deer is my closest DD dealer. (bought my 2512 from him). Go figure!

BTW, I don't get the whole "aperiodic membranes", Is this not just a fancy word for Acoustic Suspension??? or a dampening material behind a sub??? I'm confused??? Please enlighten me, so I can sell my customers "aperiodic membranes" too...I don't want to be "out of the loop", I live in a small town and it takes a while to catch on to the next big thing in the city???
Thanks,

If I recall correctly, they provide the same (tuneable) "resistance" using to the face of a sub which a proper enclosure would. That would allow you to mount 3-4 subs under your rear deck ot other such spots, almost in a free air config.
I remember reading about the founders (Eric & his brother, and their dad) who founded USD in CAR STEREO decades ago, putting only 2 15s, 2 12s and a pair of guides in their ride. (I may be confusing that car with Richard Clark's, unless he's their dad).
Anyway, COMPLETELY different ballgame than a flared end port :cheeky4:

" aperiodic membranes"-I think that I am just going to call this style of enclosure or lack of "free air" or "acoustik suspension" or "let's just throw two subs in a board and see what happens"....We used to play alot with "free air", and with the right subs it was pretty good...very hard to tune, and was very sub specific.
It's good to see that I am not a total lost with the "aperiodic membranes"??? I had honestly never heard the term, we just called them something different...

BTW, at Mike's soundoff last year, we used the aeroport in our second run, and gained 3bd, just by flaring the port...amazing demo.

http://www.teamaudionutz.com/tutoria...iodic_Cookbook

3dB, huh? That's like turning your sedan into a hatchback! (Cabin gain)

You're quick,
We did not test before our first run, and then put the flare on one end of the port, and yes a disappointment of 135 turned into 138, which for our shop is disappointing most days. 1 12" sub, with 1 750watt amp (not bad), but at the end of the day, I would venture to say that the flare added 1-2db for sure, there are alway "tricks" to get louder, and we did incorporate some of the tricks in both runs....sooooo....who really knows????

Richard Clark bought the famous USD Grand National from Speaker Works. He claims to have done a lot of reworking of it but Eric Holdaway disagrees. It'd be sweet if this car went back on the circuit.

The most simple way to explain an AP setup is 'controlled free air'. At low frequencies the sound waves have enough energy to pass through the membrane like it isn't there, so you have the benefits of a large sealed box (trunk size). As the frequencies move up they have a harder time making it through the membrane so the cone's motion is controlled, like in a smaller sealed box. Back in the day when these were popular, your average 12 wanted about 3cuft to be happy and a 15 about 5cuft so they made sense. Now, not so much.

Typical results were deeeeeeeeeep bottom end and a reasonably controlled upper bass while sacrificing some sensitivity, ie not so loud without a shitton of power.

a more linear and controlled impedence response is another benefit especially when it comes to damping factor in an ap config

I seem to recall DC audio hitting in the 160's with 2 18's?(mayabe 15's), in an astro van last year....I get the concept, and it was great to see. although did not make it through the day with the subs, I recall the coils frying...which if the theory is correct, more power less control, bigger numbers???

A few more online services would be other user reviews and opinions and one really important thing being specifications. Any shop I have gone to will usually only display basic stuff...leaving me no choice but to research online :)

So true! I've found that I have had to do that many times. The Internet has actually helped me make more informed decisions about my audio purchases and install advice waaay more than any one shop. Although some shops have proven to be excellent, the Internet has always been a great adjunct. It must drive shops nuts though to give help and advice and just have someone buy off an Internet retailer.
Just goes to show that the retailers have to adopt a different model of sales. Maybe relying more on the custom install work for profit rather than margins on product which are already thin as far as I hear. Hey I'm not an economist but I can definitely see the number of car audio shops on the low side these days.

I don't want to give any info. to guys who are just waisting my time, so that they can buy on the internet, or from a competitor. I feel that I need to earn my customers, but it doesn't always come from the best price, that is the point of independents, we strive to do something better, and it costs...When was the last time a big box store or an internet company held a "sound-off".....it doesn't happen because it costs...and I throw them to show how you can get loud, or sound great for minimal dollars and still have a good time.
Letting guys know how hard it is to hit a 140db, with 500watts, but that it is acheivable is a cool goal...