No need to have golden ears, I and many others are content with theirs and can hear differences. And differences could be subtle and sometimes could not be heard right away, but if you know what your system sounds like, and then you put another amp in, and drive around for a day or two, you start to realize whether the sound is better or worse. Ears dont only hear loud differences, but also sense depth as well, and that may take a day or two to hear if its too subtle.

You threw more wood into fire, and thats not cool, your sarcastic comments were not appreciated and noone found them funny. Dukk started this thing by adding agression to his opinion and you did not help the cause. We take pride in this forum being more polite than the rest. You can try to be helpful.

Well, deck sometimes gets hooked up via optical to the processor, and then processor has more heart than you think, and it helps a lot especially with DVD decks that have poor DAC's as they cheap out on that to pursue DVD portion on the player, eg hooking up Alpine 701 to an Alpine DVD player makes a huge difference, more open and clear sound by far.

"Amp just amps the sound" is an old argument and people who wish to be on that side of the fence throw it in, but it makes no sense to me, cause not just any amp can have a perfect design to do a perfect job. Cheaper amps use inferior parts and build quality is lower, so they dont do a good job amping the sound, but rather screw everything up and introduce undesirable effects while at it. As you say yourself, any component can alter the sound, so why are we even arguing, you just proved yourself and us correct, that amps do sound different. One of the easiest sounds to tell apart is bright or laidback, as well as tiny or open. Noise level is another one, and so is the grip on speakers. Amp manufacturers make up their specs, and a lot of times a more expensive but lower rated amp blows away the cheap stuff on every level, whether it's power, noise, or separation.

to answer your question; yes there have been a multitude of ABX tests done to find out if one amp is distinguishable from another in a controlled test environment (Scientific tests using proper methods and evaluating the amplifier itself by isolating that portion of the component...meaning they level match the amps to prevent one amp from delivering more output than another with the same input..if this was not done it would be easy for one manufacturer to add an eq circuit in the amp to boost a certain freq band and have it sound brighter or softer...which would be easy to detect. Remember, the whole point of these tests is to educate consumers as to what they are paying for. If you pay 5Gs for an amp that sounds the same as one for 300.00 at the same power levels, maybe you'd think twice about buying it. Now that 5G amp may sound different to you because it has sound processing circuitry built in, but that's not what an amp is supposed to do. They are supposed to be transparent...meaning true to the source...they are only supposed to amplify. If I knew all I needed was a relatively cheap eq circuit to reproduce the same sound as the 5G amp, maybe I'd do that and save 4600.00. All these tests are saying is that the amplifier portion is undetectable in blind tests...so far...maybe someone will be able to beat the test one day and that will change things.) Since you're unfamiliar with this subject, google Richard clark amp challenge and read through the process. Very few people actually do, and assume that RC is saying all amps (the whole package in the heat sink) sound identical, or that one should not purchase a particular brand or model due to it's price...that's incorrect. He's simply giving you information about the amplifier portion itself...and he gives many reasons why you may or should buy a certain brand for reasons other than sound quality.

Perhaps folks can stop reading online bs, and start doing the tests themselves, and then offer opinions. A lot of this amps are all the same comes from trolling the web and not actual personal experiences and that just adds more bs. Those who have Vrx's, Billets, SE's, DLS's, and many other fine amps do not suddenly sell their amps and get cheap stuff, because they did not start with those amps, but rather worked their way towards them going through other amps and not getting that unique sound that makes them melt in the car seat. I only know one guy that actually sold his Vrx's and got something cheaper, and he is all over the place with his stance, he goes back and forth with it depending on weather, and now he got DLS RA's recently, but why bother and waste time if it all is the same. I dont whether to feel bad for myself or others who cant hear it, cause I may be forever damned to buy expensive stuff, and those who cant a difference can spend their money elsewhere. Well, it makes no difference, I am happy with my expensive taste at every level of my lifestyle, and if I can afford it I will get it. I try to surround myself with luxury and love life, and even like some people may say you only love it cause its expensive, so be it, whatever turns my crank, and if that is the only thing I'd be getting, I'd still be happy.

Bottom line is there is no need to come across arrogant, and go over your post before you do post, so that you at least try to be polite, instead of "barfing" on something another user had said. With grain of salt - yes, aggression - no. And that is what makes this forum the best, well, most of the time.

#1. I apologize for the sarcasm, figured that a sense of humour was welcome. The only problem I had was that, even as of right now, we are way off topic. This thread should be retitled. You speak for everyone when you say that "we take pride..." but yet I retaliated strictly based on the unpolite response I got :dunno:

#2. Did you READ my post? Of course amps change the sound. But the point I was TRYING to make was that everything need to work together. You can't simply buy one component, no matter how high end it is, and expect the system to sound better by a large margin, as suggested earlier in this processor war. If you have a low quality portion of the system whether its the amp or deck, a processor is a.) a bandaid and b.) most likely not going to get the desired result. I have a difficult time thinking that an MX406 is going to produce poor quality sound.... 0.004% Signal to noise ratio? The deck doesn't need a processor, but if the listener feels that there are unnatural peaks and valleys in the frequency range due to the listening environment, a processor would allow for those adjustments. The perception I had reading this thread was that you need a processor, it sounds way better. That is not true for one, and for two, if someone has this deck, a processor, a top notch amp, and stock speakers, it's still going to sound like shat. Following the mantra that "you need a processor" for members that aren't seasoned in car A/V is going to lead to wasted cash. Moral of the story is to buy smart, and have your equipment installed by a reputable shop if you aren't able to do it yourself

Sooooo, like the thread's title: "Look at this classic deck!"

http://www.swaqvalley.com/images/1987Supra/IMAGE003.jpg

Now THAT'S classic! LOL

thats richard clark challenge is the first bit of information that has been thrown around on here that actually seems to have any kind of substance behind it other than personal opinion.
i'm still not agreeing either way, because i will not be fully convinced until i hear my own setup with multiple amps.
anyone have input for the other side?

....listening to what people say and reading that article, it sound as if sonic signatures shouldn't necassarily be attributed to the amp itself, but rather its ability to integrate with your system and how it will perform in your cars environment.





....and yes that is one classic deck! lol

The amps job is to amp. That's it. It's job is not to change the sound. Now, that's not to say that they don't change the sound, because they do. The MOSFET system was designed to eliminate noise in the amplification process, hence why they are used for audio. Let's say amp #1 is a Ford Fiesta. It takes you where you need to go much faster than walking. Now we have amp #2, a Ferrari... Much faster, much nicer, but still does the EXACT same job. Point a to point b. Problem with sports cars, much like amps, there are TONS of good and bad, at varying prices and varying performances. It is, suffice it to say, trail by error. Everyone hears their own way

lol, you talk about being polite and then resort to a personal attack?

Perhaps one could opine that you are lead by the nose....

Here's a question - Who here has actually participated in an ABX test of amplifiers? Not hooking up amps and then "drive around for a day or two, you start to realize whether the sound is better or worse" but right now, 1, 2, X testing? If amps are DRASTICALLY different as some believe, then it should be simple to tell.

See I used to be a follower. I spewed all that septage about this amp this and that amp that. Then I did the testing. I was confident. I failed - as did everyone else that day. NOW who forms opinion from online BS?

Yet, no one has been able to yet... Address that Sasha - why, out of all the people tested over the last 20+ years in ABX comparisons of amplifiers has not one person ever been able to consistently tell the difference between any two amps? I'm waiting, make it good.. :ohwell:

Oh - and where's the chart? :dunno:

Dukk, what exactly are you suggesting gets tested? What tests did you run? Power output? Because like I mentioned, everyone has different tastes in what is "good" sound, so I'm curious to know what you tested. I'm not referring to how much an amplifier can amplify before it clips, but when your test amps are running clean sound, how are you determining which amp sounds "better"? Did you just run sweeps and see how flat the response was? Because if that's the case, there are huge variances in amps. Hell, read a couple issues of Performance Auto And Sound and you can see that. Not one amp will produce the exact same response time and time again, even individual amps vary, you need to test them a multitude of times to get a definitive result. Even two amps of the same model and year can produce not only different outputs but also different frequency responses

I bet if I invited DUKK to a listening session with a pair of brystons and $75K speakers, he would hear the difference!

^ I would love the opportunity! Really, aside from when I have to deal with a sheep, I'm a pretty level guy. The best I have been able to use to compare independently were $7k Martin Logans. When I worked at the indy store that sold them we would spend days comparing setups.

RM - just sound man. Two amps, output level matched with a DMM, playing fullrange music on speakers. A! ok. B! ok. X! ...umm.. hmmm..

Experience > reading.

Hard Data > Experience

Dukk, I have no doubt in your level of experience. You had asked about charts previously, but you kinda shot yourself in the foot by saying that you simply listened to them. That's not to say that people can hear the difference, though, charts or not. Like I've said before, everyone has seperate listening tastes so even if I put a graph/chart in front of you and said, "SEE!!! HA! They are different!" Is that going to change your mind? Nope. It just proves they don't sound exactly the same, right? But whether you hear the difference or not is another story. It's not just tastes either, it's a physical thing. Experience can teach you what to listen for, but (especially with age :( ) it doesn't mean you can actually hear it.

I dont have time for this, and I am just getting more irate. I am out.

To Dukk: You pissed me off more and more with each comment you made negating my attempts to make you understand that you may have crossed the line with your use of certain emoticons. So finally I lost my cool and let that transportation remark out, but I could tell that this is a waste of time, you're not going to see what I mean, so I am not going to go over any of this with you. If there is anything I did or say wrong, I apologize and take everything back. I dont need any of this negativity, and I feel the only way to cure this is dropping it from my end. I have nothing to prove.

To RomanticMoments: I like to use T.A. and that is a very important feature for me in a processor, cause speakers all have different distance in the car environment, and to me it does not sound good enough without everything aligned.

I have nothing further to contribute to this thread.

Sasha: Then for you, a deck or processor that gives you Time Alignment fits your tastes. It just sounded to me like you were suggesting that jstoner should have one as well, and so should everyone. Not trying to ruffle your feathers ;)

Well, yeah, that is MY opinion, and I stand behind it, and I strongly believe he will benefit from it, and until he does put one in to see if it does or not, he will never know. I am willing to bet that if he gets a nice processor, he will not be getting rid of it. Perhaps some people did not get full potential out of their processing experiences in the past, and may need to give it another shot. A good example was the first time I tried going active and had such bad results that I have given up and said to myself that this is overrated, and people told me I have not had the proper experience, and I proved myself wrong and now love active since we set up my friends system and everything worked out perfect, and I did all the tuning, and had great results, which makes me wonder what exactly went wrong the first time. And that could be a similar case with T.A. among other settings for other people. Same with amps. The experiences I share are mine, and not from reading forums, and that is why nobody can change my mind about these things. I havent met anyone yet, who said properly tuned system with T.A. sounded better with T.A. taken out. And I cant imagine how it could one vs the other on the same install.

well there yeah go you've gone and hurt each others feelings... and here it is less than than 30 days till Christmas too.

So we have opted to do down this road again, could I please ask for civility and mature behavior. This topic and a couple others seem to push emotional buttons as I believe it attacks peoples 'foundation of belief'. As a consequence responses are emotional rather than rational. Please show a modicum of respect for others as this dialog often involves positions opposed to your own and it is a wonderful opportunity to learn new things on both sides of the issue.

point of correction RC never claimed all amps sound the same, and that is not what his test proves anyway. There are inherent flaws in the test so the test, in and of itself, does not qualify as scientific proof of anything. It does open the door to interesting discussions and makes one challenge your own belief structure as well as others beliefs.

As always I recommend each person tests for himself, and develops their own conclusion.

John - I know my ears don't lie, and those who believe they are all the same - fine believe what you want - it's your right, pocket book and ears.

My car is for me and if I chose to spend more money then the next guy to get the sound I'm looking for, I will.

Bottom line IMHO all amps have a differnet sonic signatures. If I'm part of an elite groupd people that can only hear this - then kudos to me.

Damn I was just posting a classic deck, and now everyone is pissed! Haha :)

pretty dang zany group eh? I think we covered your point OK... did we answer any questions you had to your satisfaction? If not we can hold off bickering for a bit...

folks have been saying "get back on topic" but the original poster was pretty quiet on this thread (Darin was, no doubt, eating popcorn and watching the fun). BTW McIntosh clams 3v out on this unit according to my owners manual (my earliest posts were on topic). It has a tone control at 10K and 50 Hz but that is about it for features. it has a front to rear fader for the RCA outs. There is a really nice DC to DC converter though, well made well designed BASIC HU... sonically it can play with the big boys from any perspective except altering the signal from the CD.

lol thats some funny stuff. It had an amazing start and had me tripin' on the floor, well almost, the only downside if there one, you got all technical by the end. An outro punchline would have been slik. Or is it still in ... :)

[QUOTE=Sasha;526159] I dont whether to feel bad for myself or others who cant hear it, cause I may be forever damned to buy expensive stuff, and those who cant a difference can spend their money elsewhere. Well, it makes no difference, I am happy with my expensive taste at every level of my lifestyle, and if I can afford it I will get it. I try to surround myself with luxury and love life, and even like some people may say you only love it cause its expensive, so be it, whatever turns my crank, and if that is the only thing I'd be getting, I'd still be happy.
QUOTE]

I like this.
Btw, I like the hybrid clarus from you, thanks.

[QUOTE=dino5666;526370]Thanks Dino. That was good times too. I like your taste in gear. And yeah Clarus is a really nice set :)

Actually, I was eating a Snickers bar and watching the fun :smilie_da

I find this post a little confusing. But then it appears that my post about the chart was also confusing. See, I was trying to be ultra-sarcastic in that, there is no, and could be no, chart. The point I was trying to get across, is WHO is to say that AmpA is a 'good' amp but AmpB is not. Who is Sasha to tell whomever it was that his Alpine amps were inferior to whatever he was trying to hype?

IF one was to believe that all amps have certain sonic characteristics then how could one even arbitrarily say that AmpA is better or worse than AmpB? Would it not be more prudent to try to match the characteristics of the amp to the characteristics of both the source and the speakers? See, this is what people who really know what they are doing do. They don't just regurgitate crap they pickup online.

Or maybe I'm wayyyy off base here. Sasha - what long term listening have you done with the Alpine compared to the Audison to form YOUR OWN personal opinion of the two. My guess: zero, but some guy on some forum said...

Hi John, about time you showed up. Too bad it looks like you're in the mood for some jousting. Maybe another time :D

understatement of 2009...

Wow, still angry...

Seriously? You need to know how I came to those conclusions? Simple, I ran the same set-up for a couple of years and I went through so many amps, and still have a few that are not even listed in my for sale thread. Someone on here called me an amp/subwoofer , and anyone else who knows me a little understands where that comes from. And so happens I did compare PDX's, and many many others. Now, go chew on a bone, dog.

Well Dukk-a-roo I was letting the thread run it course, seeing what new topics could be brought into the stale arguments and see who had something to bring to the table (I dont use the same arguments since i try to go with different technical or philosophical points each time).

This is an old argument and it is pointless to even discuss it. I was trying to pacify Dukk from inception of his aggression, as everyone can tell by the posts, but he keeps coming with angrier comments each time. I said I had direct experience, and then later he comes back with the same at me, why is he using the same arguments I did? Not very creative, more like recycling. And now, he is threatening to ban me after pissing me off. This is like a set-up. Dukk started this crap and now he is wining if I dont stop he will send me on vacation. He is a bigger douche than I thought.

I offered the OP to try out my amp, so that he can see what he likes best, and that is how committed I am to making this forum a better place by helping each other out. I have spent my money and a lot of effort to come to these conclusions, and offered someone my time and my resources in exchange of potential gratitude for learning something for themselves. Perhaps Dukk is jealous cause I can allocate more funds to this hobby than him. I dont know what his problem is, aside from being an aggressive wiener.

BTW, my friend just got a VRX installed, and I have not heard it yet, and he is estatic, and says he is now sure he wants to run all VRX's. We do a lot of testing in his car, cause of the ease of his set-up style. And he admits himself he does not have as good of ears as me. We love the same style of music, and he is amazed how I can tell whose production it is just by hearing it, because some of the major players have their signature sound style, and it has nothing to do with sound quality as that is a prerequisite. So admittedly, he does not have the ears I do, and yet he is blown away by VRX performance. I dont even have to hear the VRX to know that noone will complain about it's competency. This will be my first VRX I would hear on a familiar set-up. I am just as happy as he is, as we both feel we received a great addition to our family. I've converted many many friends to getting higher end amps and every single one of them cant thank me enough, as they too experienced a vast improvement over their previous amps on the same set-up. I always had great results recommending amps from Audison, DLS, Tru, Arc, and even JL, and yes I have tried out all these amps except their entry level stuff. These companies offer amps that sound absolutely amazing and can be had for not so much if bought used and there are always a few floating around.

For the record Sasha - I rarely get angry and bantering with someone like you surely won't do it. I've asked you several direct questions now though and you have answered none of them (well you almost answered one) but rather began insulting me as it is obvious that you cannot answer them. YOU are the one retorting with insults and negative attitude. Why not just answer the questions?

Call me a name or discredit me again though, and I'll show you what a douche I can be. Get my drift sunshine?

I suggest you take your own advice.

as stated by Romanticmoments an amps job is to amplify, in theory the purpose of the amp to be the straight wire with gain. I think there are a couple points here to be made on that
if an amp were ever to succeed and be a straight wire with gain, that would mean the amplification scheme would be singular, that is, ALWAYS the same. As it is we have amps available with different electrical designs and different circuit layouts for the same design. We also have amps with different amplification techniques (tube vs transistor and transistor vs transistor (bipolar, mosfet, IC, fet) multi stage amplification and single stage. We have global, staged, zoned feedback as well as feed forward and no feedback and that certainly affects distortion levels as well as the damping of the amplifier. By simply moving certain sensitive components on a circuit board you can significantly alter the operating performance of the circuit as a whole.

Amplifiers do not sound the same, they are not designed to sound the same and are purposely built to perform to a price point. Bob Carver proved this by using a concept he called nullification to electrically alter the sound of his reasonably priced amp till it performed similar to and sounded very much like a mega-buck amplifier. The Carver (sunfire) amp was then marketed as a low cost alternative to high priced exotics.

I dont know where this lone resistor crap comes from but I do not believe the sound of an amp is determined by a single potentiometer sorry.

Audio is a hobby and should make you happy, when you get caught up in the minutia and start getting ticked off it is an obsession. The term audiophile was intended to be a positive term as it means lover of sound or music. The term audiophile is currently connotated with elitism and bad science. I am afraid many of the things that make a difference are simply not fully defined, and there isn't enough $ to fully prove out theories and develop formal test procedures. The marketing people have had more affect on us then they should.


Sasha- dont equate price with performance

Ok, ok - I know we've discussed this at length John and I believe that, while we disagree here and there, we respect eachothers point of view. Since this always boils down to something of a stalemate, I'll meet you half way - amplifiers do not sound the same, but nobody thus far has been able to prove they sound different, within the confines of the test anyway.

fair enough? :D

agreed... disagreeing is OK as it helps fine tune thoughts and lines of reason

and to meet you half way I am not sure sonic difference between a $4000 amp and a $500 is terribly profound or is even a better way to spend money to get a true hi-fidelity reproduction of the information on the CD.

edited: to actually say something close to what I meant

:lol_hitti Dukk & John -> I have to chuckle here, I've read the replies you guys have posted and I think the three of us have been trying to say roughly the same thing all along! I find it ironic, actually. My opinion on this whole thing is simply that it is nearly impossible to get 100% accurate reproduction especially when you consider the amount of companies/components that are out there, and the environment we're working in. Like I said before, the thing that most influences your audio is the listening space. A car has a very long list of things that need to be corrected. It takes a retarded :retard: amount of work to get an SQ car in contention for competitions. Like racing, a sound comp shows the elite of what the equipment and it's builder(s) are capable of. In the real world it's all about compromise. Car audio is a hobby, and audiophiles are audio lovers, nothing more. Can we move on? :dunno:

Check this deck out

http://www.saturnfans.com/photos/dat...alpine7401.jpg

"Dust Guard" OOOOOooooOo AaaAAaa

RM - John and I both like to banter and we fit eachother well in that the discussion usually hangs on the the technical side and we try to not make it personal.

You appear to have a good grasp of what you are talking about as well.

That Alpine was 'the ' back in the day. I might still have one lying around somewhere.

Ahaha I know, we pulled one out of a Hilux (Japan's version of a Toyota Tacoma) and stood in awe of it for a while. I'm a certified installer, so I do know what I'm talking about, but I don't know everything, and I'm not perfect. I tend to keep my responses more on the laymen's terms side just so that people not-so-technical can read my posts and get a general grasp of what I'm talking about

I've still got some mint condition, full colour, large format catalogs from that era...and i've still got a good working condition 7390 form c. 1990...that was the shizzle!!

I was using a Soundstream TC306 HU at that time (I had just sold my car with the Concord HU in it)

OOOOO Check THIS one out!

https://www.sierramadrecollection.co.../528_small.jpg

AHAHAHAHA :pimp:

Yup used to own one of these myself.:smilie_da