Old school amp
06-08-2006, 01:38 PM
#101
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by islandphile
What are u guys going on about home theatre... this is about car audio so forget those numbers. Yes science is science and measurements are measurements...so what... getting back to the REAL WORLD...what distortion can you actually hear in a car moving down the road, I bet you couldn't hear 1% THD, ok maybe in the mids & highs in a reeeeaaaallly quiet car, but bass forgetaboutit.
And nobody I know uses class-d on anything but subs and maybe midbass.
You show your maturity when you infer that no-one cares about SQ anymore and that it's all SPL now...where did you come up with that one???
Truth is, most boomers quickly grow out of that phase of their life and end up as SQ'ers or SQL'ers and leave those "no SQ at all" days behind unless they're SPL competitors (no offense intended here SPL'ers). Once you get over the fact that a car stereo can make a lot of bass, how long can you listen to just that...my guess not very.
Maybe we have a few people on here who never did grow up and still boom around everywhere going "Hey Look @ Me" and think that is what everyone else must be doing.
And nobody I know uses class-d on anything but subs and maybe midbass.
You show your maturity when you infer that no-one cares about SQ anymore and that it's all SPL now...where did you come up with that one???
Truth is, most boomers quickly grow out of that phase of their life and end up as SQ'ers or SQL'ers and leave those "no SQ at all" days behind unless they're SPL competitors (no offense intended here SPL'ers). Once you get over the fact that a car stereo can make a lot of bass, how long can you listen to just that...my guess not very.
Maybe we have a few people on here who never did grow up and still boom around everywhere going "Hey Look @ Me" and think that is what everyone else must be doing.
LOL.. you care about SQ yet you use class - D! If you only knew how class - d worked electronically you would be disapointed in your selection. Also most people at competitions are there for db drags not SQ.
OK ok.. I digress, I'm gettin into these Paradigm Anthoms. Check out the specs here.
http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Products/P_Series/Specifications/P_Specs.html
THIS FOLKS is how all the high end car audio amps were rated back in the day.
You knew slew rate, frequency response, sensitivity, THD, input sensetivity, crosstalk etc etc. You would be hard pressed to find that on a car amp these days.
My case with the home audio is that if 1%THD isn't heard or doesn't matter then what about in an SQ competition, at idle or with the car off? Then why are home audio entusiasts whining about it? It does make a difference. We aren't even getting into other areas of the amp that matter like how linear the frequency response of the amp really is.
Don't get me wrong, class-d is fine for bass. It is efficient for it's intended purpose but for all around performance, clarity, SQ you can't beat oldschool class A or AB. It's quality sound that can't be beat by class-d except in total power efficiency.
I'd take a 100w class AB over a 100watt class D any second.
Last edited by Faststang; 06-08-2006 at 01:46 PM.
06-08-2006, 02:14 PM
#103
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by islandphile
Re-Read my post there Einstein...nowhere do I mention that I use Class-D.
Fine you tell me what the differences are between class A and class D if you know electronically and I'll point out any errors I see. If you knew the dif you would know which one is sonically better. Or is that not part of our old vs new discussion anymore?
Also my case about home audio is still valid and is "the real world". Why are they concerened about 1% THD if it doesn't sonically make a difference period. If your worried about SQ your worried about 1%. which BTW is about 1000x more distortion than .001 THD.
06-08-2006, 02:53 PM
#105
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,120
You wanna correct any errors u see?? Lol, u wanna be my teacher...lol
...and how old are u btw? Into car audio since when?
U come off like everyone else but u is dumb as sh*t
Maybe, just maybe if u showed a little respect 'cause u don't seem to know anything about the people in this thread.
U wanna gimme some lessons, huh?? Very amusing..
I will enlighten u a tiny bit: 1% THD in a car does not matter b/c u cant hear it just like u can't hear .0000001 % THD. Got it now? ur argument is not "real world" and is thus a moot point.
...and how old are u btw? Into car audio since when?
U come off like everyone else but u is dumb as sh*t
Maybe, just maybe if u showed a little respect 'cause u don't seem to know anything about the people in this thread.
U wanna gimme some lessons, huh?? Very amusing..
I will enlighten u a tiny bit: 1% THD in a car does not matter b/c u cant hear it just like u can't hear .0000001 % THD. Got it now? ur argument is not "real world" and is thus a moot point.
06-08-2006, 02:57 PM
#106
Administrator
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,855
^ Psh, Randy, what the hell do we know eh? We've apparantly both been doing it wrong for the last 20 years (you a couple more than me old man) 
Faststang, although I don't always get along with Islandphile, he knows his - he has nothing to prove to you. He is one of the guys you listen to.
As for distortion - most people cannot hear 5% and very few can hear lower than 3%. 1% just does not matter. And the speaker doesn't care either.
Oh and Hitachi or Yamaha was doing full range high end Class D in the home in the early 70s. Yeah, back then both were cutting edge brands. Why did they stop - no need for the power savings for the house and they cost a lot more to build.
In the mid 90s Infinity had full range Class D car amps. Guess what - they faired as well as anything in SQ comps.
Xtant currently makes a mono, full range Class D car amp. A couple of big hitters on the SQ circuit use them.
I'm sure you are aware, but I'll remind everyone else, that the major influence in the 'high distortion' that class D amps exhibit is the out of band switching noise of the power supply that bleeds through. It's above where humans can hear but it gets lumped into the TDH+noise specification. Within it's operating range, a Class D amp really does not have a whole lot more "distortion" than any other kind - and it's all inaudible anyway.
But what do I know.
Faststang, although I don't always get along with Islandphile, he knows his - he has nothing to prove to you. He is one of the guys you listen to.
As for distortion - most people cannot hear 5% and very few can hear lower than 3%. 1% just does not matter. And the speaker doesn't care either.
Oh and Hitachi or Yamaha was doing full range high end Class D in the home in the early 70s. Yeah, back then both were cutting edge brands. Why did they stop - no need for the power savings for the house and they cost a lot more to build.
In the mid 90s Infinity had full range Class D car amps. Guess what - they faired as well as anything in SQ comps.
Xtant currently makes a mono, full range Class D car amp. A couple of big hitters on the SQ circuit use them.
I'm sure you are aware, but I'll remind everyone else, that the major influence in the 'high distortion' that class D amps exhibit is the out of band switching noise of the power supply that bleeds through. It's above where humans can hear but it gets lumped into the TDH+noise specification. Within it's operating range, a Class D amp really does not have a whole lot more "distortion" than any other kind - and it's all inaudible anyway.
But what do I know.
06-08-2006, 03:06 PM
#107
I love this post.
Well guys I will agree with some and not with others. What I do appreciate is that everyone has their say some good and some not so good.
I really like it when the real old school guys get in and provide some good knowledge. I have only been in this game 15yrs and I don't even come close to some of the knowledge and information that some of you guys have.
Let's all try and have some fun here and just remember that we should all take things for what they are.
Just my two cents and no i'm not a politician..
I really like it when the real old school guys get in and provide some good knowledge. I have only been in this game 15yrs and I don't even come close to some of the knowledge and information that some of you guys have.
Let's all try and have some fun here and just remember that we should all take things for what they are.
Just my two cents and no i'm not a politician..
06-08-2006, 07:33 PM
#108
Having watched this one drift around a bit for the last oh......8 pages or so, my question is: did 4boysss catch the answer to the original question midway through the debate?....
If they did they haven't said anything....maybe they're afraid to get into the middle of it....
Keep it up tho guys, I've learned a few things during the debate I didn't know before....
If they did they haven't said anything....maybe they're afraid to get into the middle of it....
Keep it up tho guys, I've learned a few things during the debate I didn't know before....
06-08-2006, 08:13 PM
#109
Originally Posted by Faststang
Infact I think you will find that all NEW GEN high end $10,000 plus home entertainment setups used OPTICAL CLASS A or AB amplifiers....
HMMMMMM sounds ALOT like my OLD SCHOOL BLADE GRENADE!!!!!! Find me an optical class A car audio amp these days.... an even better challenge!
optical = digital = inherently impossible to amplify. What does an "optical" amp do, make the 1's and 0's bigger?
I don't even think you know what class A really is. I think those Paradigms would set your house on fire if they actually made 370wrms x 2 into 4 ohm were they class A.
Class A is the realm of 15x2 amps that you can cook eggs on.
As for an "optical class A car audio amp" the only thing ever that was close to that was the Pioneer RS-A1 and it's brother, model I forget, which had optical in, D/A's in the amps, and were class A biased for a few watts.
The only "true" class A car amp I can think of atm is monolithic.
06-09-2006, 08:50 AM
#110
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by Newb
WTF is an optical class A amp?
optical = digital = inherently impossible to amplify. What does an "optical" amp do, make the 1's and 0's bigger?
I don't even think you know what class A really is. I think those Paradigms would set your house on fire if they actually made 370wrms x 2 into 4 ohm were they class A.
Class A is the realm of 15x2 amps that you can cook eggs on.
As for an "optical class A car audio amp" the only thing ever that was close to that was the Pioneer RS-A1 and it's brother, model I forget, which had optical in, D/A's in the amps, and were class A biased for a few watts.
The only "true" class A car amp I can think of atm is monolithic.
optical = digital = inherently impossible to amplify. What does an "optical" amp do, make the 1's and 0's bigger?
I don't even think you know what class A really is. I think those Paradigms would set your house on fire if they actually made 370wrms x 2 into 4 ohm were they class A.
Class A is the realm of 15x2 amps that you can cook eggs on.
As for an "optical class A car audio amp" the only thing ever that was close to that was the Pioneer RS-A1 and it's brother, model I forget, which had optical in, D/A's in the amps, and were class A biased for a few watts.
The only "true" class A car amp I can think of atm is monolithic.
I did design on a few amplifers during my college days.
Before judging that an optical class A amp doesn't exist you may want to research it. An optical Class A amp is where the base of the transistor uses internal fiber optics instead of electricity to trigger turning on the transistors (in laymans terms). It's much more efficient than traditional class A transistor style amplifiers and isolates noise between the base of the transistor and the output stage. It is VERY common if you know electronics.
A class-A amplifiers transistor conducts and amplifies an entire 360 waveform. This limits total power output BUT since it conducts the entire time the output can be calibrated VERY accuralty. Hence VERY LOW DISTORTION.
A class-AB amplifier has 2 transistors one conducts for 180degrees of a waveform and the other conducts for the second half of the waveform. This boosts output but there are inherant design problems with the triggering of the transistors that causes distortion right where they switch in conduction. It is still VERY ACCURATE, but not as accurate as class-A and can be made to output more power than class-A
A class-D amp comes from a digital background. Class-D takes the input waveform and signals the transistors turn on time. This allows the transistors to only be on when needed making it very efficient BUT clips the signal every time the switching occurs in the supply. This is efficient but not as accurate as class-A or AB.
As for the Antems, they need dual 20amp circuit breakers and weigh in at 130 pounds. They are the real class A deal. MANY class AB which are similar concept in car audio have been taken to 1500wrms yet you don't think a 130lb class A running dual 20amp 120volt power feeds with 14 stages can output that kind of power. Give me a break! I've designed 15w class-A's using a single transistor and it barely got warm.
BTW attached is a quick scetch of how the output signals look in these amps.
Last edited by Faststang; 06-09-2006 at 09:22 AM.
