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Truth in wattage ratings for audio equipment petition

Old 02-04-2009, 03:07 PM
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Truth in wattage ratings for audio equipment petition

Hey guys this was started on another forum I belong to. We need as many people as we can get to follow the link and sign this petition.


Truth in wattage ratings for audio equipment Petition



We are planning on a member in the area going to this meeting to present the petition.


Standards Committee

Spring Forum:
May 11-15, 2009
St. Louis, MO

Contact Us:
[email protected]

R6 WG10 Mobile Amplifier Measurement

Chairperson
Mr. Garry Springgay, Cogent Audio Labs

Committee Scope
R6 WG10 revises CEA-2006, Testing & Measurement Methods for Mobile Audio Amplifiers, to incorporate clarifications resulting from industry use.

Lets get the word out to everyone to get this signed.
Thanks
Nick
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:24 PM
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signed. i like the idea
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:33 PM
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wont work. way too many variables involved.

I.E. a 400W amplifier must be capable of producing at least 400W RMS at no more than 1% T.H.D.
a 400 watt amplifier can produce less than 400 watts, 400 watts or more than 400 watts. all depends on how it's used. Moreover, you will never get 400 watts on the dot.

the need for such petition only show how stupid the consumer really is vs. how manufacturers have learnt to utilize marketing to their advatage.

You dont need a petition to know what a peice of equipment is capable of, or supposed to be capabel of. All you need is some basic knowledge (ohm's law, etc) and the ability to read between the lines.

Putting the amplifier output rating on the petition as an example is a terrible idea. Many people are not familiar with the concept of impedance curve or imp rise, which means that you will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER get the rated power out of the amplifier when hooked up at its minimal recommeded/rated load. This concept alone throws that petition out of the window. I wonder how many people would say 'HUH?' if you were to tell them that the ACTUAL power output of their amplifier is heavily depandant on their box design and the way their speaker/subwoofer reacts in a given box. I'm not gonna get into the detail of HOW, but that's the truth.

This gets even worse when you begin to talk about speaker/subwoofer power handling. How much power a subwoofer can handle depends on MANY more things than its mechanical structure. It can depend on the box, signal, loading, etc, etc, etc.

And even with speakers/subwoofers, the general lack of knowledge or just plain stupidity of consumer becomes evident when people say things like "My subs PUT OUT 700 watts". Try telling people that their subs dont actually put out watts and see the expression on their face.

Last edited by Father Yuli; 02-04-2009 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Father Yuli View Post
wont work. way too many variables involved.



a 400 watt amplifier can produce less than 400 watts, 400 watts or more than 400 watts. all depends on how it's used. Moreover, you will never get 400 watts on the dot.

the need for such petition only show how stupid the consumer really is vs. how manufacturers have learnt to utilize marketing to their advatage.

You dont need a petition to know what a peice of equipment is capable of, or supposed to be capabel of. All you need is some basic knowledge (ohm's law, etc) and the ability to read between the lines.

Putting the amplifier output rating on the petition as an example is a terrible idea. Many people are not familiar with the concept of impedance curve or imp rise, which means that you will NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER get the rated power out of the amplifier when hooked up at its minimal recommeded/rated load. This concept alone throws that petition out of the window. I wonder how many people would say 'HUH?' if you were to tell them that the ACTUAL power output of their amplifier is heavily depandant on their box design and the way their speaker/subwoofer reacts in a given box. I'm not gonna get into the detail of HOW, but that's the truth.

This gets even worse when you begin to talk about speaker/subwoofer power handling. How much power a subwoofer can handle depends on MANY more things than its mechanical structure. It can depend on the box, signal, loading, etc, etc, etc.

And even with speakers/subwoofers, the general lack of knowledge or just plain stupidity of consumer becomes evident when people say things like "My subs PUT OUT 700 watts". Try telling people that their subs dont actually put out watts and see the expression on their face.

Extremely great post and i can't agree more. But how many times are you tired of seeing/hearing people say they have a 3000W stereo system, when in fact is a visonik amp that says 3000W and does 300rms at the most. I think thats what this petition is after
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:08 PM
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if companys can just put the RMS power rating at all impendence 1, 2, 4 ohm. thats all ppl need to know. misleading ppl with peak power is stupid and still catches some idiots today ( ohh i got 1000 watts but they actually have 200 ) and thay paid lots for so little.

RMS ratings only ppl stop advertising with PEAK power
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jalat View Post
Extremely great post and i can't agree more. But how many times are you tired of seeing/hearing people say they have a 3000W stereo system, when in fact is a visonik amp that says 3000W and does 300rms at the most. I think thats what this petition is after
Bingo, right on the money jalat. Most of us on the forums know what to look for and how to interpret what the manufacturers claim. Does the average consumer? Is the average consumer going to first know there is a problem? 2nd will they know how to calculate wattage using ohms law? 3rd will they know how to change things? 4th will they care enough to do anything? Most of the time it will be a resounding no to all four questions. We as the enthusiasts of the industry should step up and recognize there is deceitful advertising coming from certain manufacturers, and try to do something to stop it, and make it easier for the average joe to know that the new amp they want is actually capable of producing the wattages advertised.

Here is the original post that started the petition idea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm starting to see a trend in car audio equipment ratings, I'm seeing the PiMPO "rating" applied to car audio on more and more MFG pages. I've seen a few of you asking what it means, well, it stands for Peak Music Power Output but it means bupkis. PiMPO is like "max power", it's something that hooks in fish. It's an arbitrary term coined to add appeal to a product. Generally I only saw it applied to cheap, third world made audio gear such as PC speaker systems and boom-boxes. That's the reason I refer to it as PiMPO (I pronounce it as pimp-o) because the marketers of that gear are pimping out their integrity. Rather than using an established rating and letting the gear stand on it's own merits, they try to inflate the abilities of their product to make it seem more than what it actually is.

Now, if a product only has a PiMPO rating given I won't touch it because the actual ability of the product is a complete unknown. There are no guidelines governing the rating of audio gear aside from the CEA ratings (which is a rant for another time/place) but honest continuous RMS ratings are very helpful as they tell you what gear is capable of for sustained periods of time. PiMPO could be for 1/1,000,000th of a second at 5X normal operating voltage, something that could be repeated but is never likely to happen because it's not something that will be encountered by 99.999999999% of users. Besides, it's likely that once that peak rating has been reached, the magic blue smoke will have left the building and your gear will cease to function.

Personally, and this is just my humble opinion, I think that all arbitrary amplifier ratings should be done away with. If an amp is capable of X wattage RMS and Y wattage peak then the peak wattage should be listed at the same input voltage (for the power source) as the input voltage for the RMS rating (some do and some don't) along with the gain relative to the gain needed to achieve RMS wattage and the distortion at peak. Also the length of time that the peak is capable of occurring should be published as well. Use peak wattages as a measurement of the amp's actual headroom rather than a wow factor to draw in the uninformed. But, peak wattage should never be on the amp or packaging in anything other than fine print. Not in the model number, not in bold print on the packaging and not emblazoned across the top of the amp.

I'm really becoming discouraged that MFG's feel that they need to use "wow" factor numbers that mean jack to snare customers based on the ignorance of the customer. Personally I can look at an amp and tell quite a bit about it, if it's 8" X 7" X 2" and claims it'll do 2000W it's a pretty good bet you need to shift the decimal point one space to the left to get a truer rating.

Before anyone accuses me of picking on any one MFG, no, I'm not. It's trend I'm seeing across several MFG sites and I'm not naming names. I just find it disturbing and wanted to vent. I'm sick, I'm crabby and I'm bored.
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:18 PM
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well thats the same thing with car manufacturers that advertise 350 HP cars. A car savy person knows that an advertised "350 HP" car will never produce 350 HP on a dyno. Same thing here.

Or how many cars these days can actually reach the top maximum speed displayed on the speedometer? Most cars cant.

General knowledge is your friend, but ignorance IS infact bliss.

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Old 02-04-2009, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 420guy View Post
Bingo, right on the money jalat. Most of us on the forums know what to look for and how to interpret what the manufacturers claim. Does the average consumer? Is the average consumer going to first know there is a problem? 2nd will they know how to calculate wattage using ohms law? 3rd will they know how to change things? 4th will they care enough to do anything? Most of the time it will be a resounding no to all four questions. We as the enthusiasts of the industry should step up and recognize there is deceitful advertising coming from certain manufacturers, and try to do something to stop it, and make it easier for the average joe to know that the new amp they want is actually capable of producing the wattages advertised.
Nick i have a VERY simple answer to all those scenarios and questions. A average consumer should have all those things done at their local car audio retailer/installer. That is a resounding YES to all of the above questions.

When people at local Tim Hortons "show off" their 10,000 watt systems to me I just nod my head, smile and say "wow that is sick". I could not care less to educate someone who's already been "educated".

I understand that you are trying to do a good thing. I got fired from FutureShop for doing the same when I would explain to people how bogus some of the power ratings were, this was back in 200/01, I'd sign the petition then. Now it's too late and i think it is better to let this trend take its natural course. I believe we will reach a point where consumers realize how BS these ratings are, which, in turn, will be considered by the manufacturers and will become a part or basis for a new marketing strategy. Then, instead of promoting bogus ratings companies will focus on how un-bogus their ratings are. It's a cycle that will repeat itself.

Last edited by Father Yuli; 02-04-2009 at 04:30 PM.
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Father Yuli View Post
Nick i have a VERY simple answer to all those scenarios and questions. A average consumer should have all those things done at their local car audio retailer/installer. That is a resounding YES to all of the above questions.

When people at local Tim Hortons "show off" their 10,000 watt systems to me I just nod my head, smile and say "wow that is sick". I could not care less to educate someone who's already been "educated".
Which would be okay except that now we have Future shop, Best buy, CDN tire, & Walmart, etc selling car audio now. Try getting anything answered by the guys working there. The most common answer is HUH I don't know let me ask. Personally I know better than to buy anything at these places, so do most of the forum members. Ahhh so when I was showing you my system and you nodded and said it was sick LOL I understand now LOL
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:35 PM
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i would also like to add that an amp can only produce what it produces and when it produces, regardless of it having a rms or max rating.

Think about that for a minute.
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