What The Hell Is This?
08-07-2007, 03:48 PM
#11
Originally Posted by tg989
clipping kills your speakers.
08-07-2007, 03:50 PM
#12
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Ligeia
It most certainly does not, my friend. Only power is capable of damaging a speaker, either through more power than the speaker can dissipate thermally, or by exceeding mechanical limits. A clipped signal has a lower crest factor (0dB, whereas sine wave has 3dB crest factor and music typically has a 10-20dB crest factor) which results in more average power, but if this can be safely dissipated by the speaker, it will not be damaged at all. I can clip a speaker all day long without damaging it, but once I apply more power than it can safely dissipate, it's in trouble.
The problem is when you pin the amp, it will by design output more amperage and less voltage, this causes more heat than usual for that given wattage and it can bypass the thermal rating for the speaker quickly.
read up on high voltage amplifiers and you'll learn about output voltage and amperage and its effects on thermal damage to speakers (and avoiding it by using high voltage low amperage).
Yes, a lot of HF will blow out your tweeters. No question. But the bass end? Well there are a couple of things to say about this. Firstly, although some power amps most certainly can pass DC, it's a seriously bad idea to pass it to the speakers. For a start, there's not a room around that can reproduce frequencies anywhere near that low, and any small DC offset in the amp output will cause a permanent deflection (although this is usually pretty small) in the resting position of the cone. So AC coupled speakers are a good idea, because with DC coupled ones, the slightest fault will take out the speaker cones, and even if you have switch-on transient supression, this won't protect your speakers from the inevitable damage that an amp fault will cause.
But the biggie, and the one that seems to be most misunderstood, is the power handling one. Let's just consider first what happens when an amplifier clips at a level below the speaker power handling limit - the under-powered amp situation. The speaker cone has mass, which means that it takes time to accelerate. When your amp output clips, the cone will continue to travel in the direction that it was going, even though it's not supposed to. Not only that, but it generates what's known as a 'back emf' in the form of an error signal, which will actually be reflected in the amp's output. What happens at this point varies rather, according to what type of amp you've got, but it ain't good, and it sounds dreadful, however you look at it. But the real problem is that it's actually not too good for the voice coil. Coil wants to stop, cone is going to keep travelling... Pretty soon, as they try to part company, this will loosen the windings, and this is when you get 'grating' noises from your speaker.
So what about the other way around? Plenty of output from the amp, which isn't going to clip yetawhile. And the speaker cone suspension will hit the end stops, where it will promptly make a horrible clicking noise that you really won't like. But with modern-day speakers, you have to do this for quite a while before damage actually starts - unless of course you overdrive so severely that you rip the cone straight out of the speaker. Yes, the voice coil will warm up, and eventually burn out, which is another good reason for not continuing this for too long. But believe it or not, this is actually less likely to damage your speaker than the underpowered situation will.
And it will sound better, too. If you run an amp up to its clipping point, it's going to produce far more distortion during the peaks than a relatively underdriven but more powerful amp will. So the general rule is (if you want to play safe, and have good sound) that if you've got 50W rated speakers, run them off a 100W amp, and use a bit of common sense about the levels.
So, you run your underpowered amp into clipping a lot of the time, thinking that your much more powerful speakers will handle it okay, and actually, they're not handling it very well at all!
But the biggie, and the one that seems to be most misunderstood, is the power handling one. Let's just consider first what happens when an amplifier clips at a level below the speaker power handling limit - the under-powered amp situation. The speaker cone has mass, which means that it takes time to accelerate. When your amp output clips, the cone will continue to travel in the direction that it was going, even though it's not supposed to. Not only that, but it generates what's known as a 'back emf' in the form of an error signal, which will actually be reflected in the amp's output. What happens at this point varies rather, according to what type of amp you've got, but it ain't good, and it sounds dreadful, however you look at it. But the real problem is that it's actually not too good for the voice coil. Coil wants to stop, cone is going to keep travelling... Pretty soon, as they try to part company, this will loosen the windings, and this is when you get 'grating' noises from your speaker.
So what about the other way around? Plenty of output from the amp, which isn't going to clip yetawhile. And the speaker cone suspension will hit the end stops, where it will promptly make a horrible clicking noise that you really won't like. But with modern-day speakers, you have to do this for quite a while before damage actually starts - unless of course you overdrive so severely that you rip the cone straight out of the speaker. Yes, the voice coil will warm up, and eventually burn out, which is another good reason for not continuing this for too long. But believe it or not, this is actually less likely to damage your speaker than the underpowered situation will.
And it will sound better, too. If you run an amp up to its clipping point, it's going to produce far more distortion during the peaks than a relatively underdriven but more powerful amp will. So the general rule is (if you want to play safe, and have good sound) that if you've got 50W rated speakers, run them off a 100W amp, and use a bit of common sense about the levels.
So, you run your underpowered amp into clipping a lot of the time, thinking that your much more powerful speakers will handle it okay, and actually, they're not handling it very well at all!
Last edited by tg989; 08-07-2007 at 03:55 PM.
08-07-2007, 03:55 PM
#13
Originally Posted by tg989
read my explaination. you can blow a 300w rms woofer with an 80wrms amp. I'll demonstrate it for you if you have one of each kicking around.
The problem is when you pin the amp, it will by design draw more amperage and less voltage, this causes more heat than usual for that given wattage and it can bypass the thermal rating for the speaker quickly.
read up on high voltage amplifiers and you'll learn about output voltage and amperage and its effects on thermal damage to speakers (and avoiding it by using high voltage low amperage).
The problem is when you pin the amp, it will by design draw more amperage and less voltage, this causes more heat than usual for that given wattage and it can bypass the thermal rating for the speaker quickly.
read up on high voltage amplifiers and you'll learn about output voltage and amperage and its effects on thermal damage to speakers (and avoiding it by using high voltage low amperage).
Perhaps a question worth pondering: if clipping kills speakers, why is it that a guitar player intentionally uses clipping to achieve their sonic signature? How is it that the speakers they use do not fail as a result of this clipping?
08-07-2007, 04:01 PM
#14
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
Originally Posted by Ligeia
Not to be rude, but I am more than familiar with the concept of voltage and amperage. I don't have time to expand on this at the moment, but I assure you that clipping does not inherently damage a speaker. I have posted about this several times before and you can find the answer via google search or a search on any of the major car audio forums (caraudio.com, soundsolutionsaudio.com, carstereos.org, etc).
Perhaps a question worth pondering: if clipping kills speakers, why is it that a guitar player intentionally uses clipping to achieve their sonic signature? How is it that the speakers they use do not fail as a result of this clipping?
Perhaps a question worth pondering: if clipping kills speakers, why is it that a guitar player intentionally uses clipping to achieve their sonic signature? How is it that the speakers they use do not fail as a result of this clipping?
distortion is not clipping.
amplifier clipping is not the same as speaker clipping which is not the same as guitar pedal distortion, which involves no clipping whatsoever.
did you read the thread?
08-07-2007, 10:33 PM
#15
Originally Posted by Ligeia
It most certainly does not, my friend. Only power is capable of damaging a speaker, either through more power than the speaker can dissipate thermally, or by exceeding mechanical limits.
08-08-2007, 12:16 AM
#16
Originally Posted by tg989
my god, you've gotten your 1 reply and 1 backup justification, now you're getting the "you're retarded and shouldn't be giving out advice" response.
distortion is not clipping.
amplifier clipping is not the same as speaker clipping which is not the same as guitar pedal distortion, which involves no clipping whatsoever.
did you read the thread?
distortion is not clipping.
amplifier clipping is not the same as speaker clipping which is not the same as guitar pedal distortion, which involves no clipping whatsoever.
did you read the thread?
1. Clipping is a form of waveform distortion.
2. What on earth is speaker clipping? You can't really make a speaker clip, you can only feed it a clipped signal.
3. The distortion you hear on a guitar is a direct result of clipping the signal. This is well known amongst those who play guitar. If you want to read a source online that concurs with my opinion, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distortion#Guitar_sound
4. Can you provide a link to where you obtained that information on clipping? I fear the poster is aware of the general concepts but perhaps lacking the fundamentals of what clipping is.
5. I don't recall saying that clipping doesn't carry a higher average power over time; in fact, I believe I said that very sentence and discussed the crest factor of a clipped signal. However, clipping itself does not damage a speaker; only power does. Does a clipped signal carry more power? Yes. Does a clipped signal, that falls below the speakers thermal dissipation limits in a given period of time, damage a speaker? No.
I've already given the guitar example, but here's another:
You have a speaker capable of handling 2kW RMS and 10kW bursts in competition. If you connect it to an amplifier rated at 10W RMS and fully clip the signal, does the speaker die? No. Is it accurate to say that clipping kills speakers? No.
There is a very fundamental flaw in the "headroom" argument, and that is this:
If we assume that the user is reckless enough to crank the gain and induce clipping with a smaller amplifier, what stops them from cranking the gain with an amplifier with greater voltage rails?
I'll cite some sources that agree with me sometime tomorrow night, but this is food for thought on a very misunderstood topic. Here's another absolute myth about clipping to think about: that there is a DC component present in the signal.
08-08-2007, 08:41 AM
#17
Originally Posted by Ligeia
You have a speaker capable of handling 2kW RMS and 10kW bursts in competition. If you connect it to an amplifier rated at 10W RMS and fully clip the signal, does the speaker die? No. Is it accurate to say that clipping kills speakers? No.
If you run a 100rms speaker with a 100rms amp driven into cliping your speaker is at much higher risk of failure compared to if you're using a 200rms amp properly. So again the answer is that power alone is not the sole reason for his driver failure.
08-08-2007, 10:32 AM
#19
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 51
dude you're mentally retarded.
you cannot blow a 2kw sub with a 10wrms amp, there are limits. I can plug my w15gti's into the wall and watch them sing at 60hz, but if I were to square wave them at 1000watts (and they are thermally rated for 5000w), they would eventually burn. You can obviously blow a 200wrms sub with a 100wrms amp or even a 50wrms amp.
when you are running a perfect sine wave at 100watts, your average power is much lower than that, as only the peaks are at 100watts - and that is with a constant wave, most bass has breaks in between. however when you start to square wave that 100 watts, your amp spends more time at its peak (the top of the square wave) and the change between +100 watts and -100 watts is shorter, so your average power gets very close to 100 watts, therefore outputting more than a 200w amp would without clipping and creating a lot more stress on the voice coil as square waves are much more difficult for the cone/suspension to follow -- what you will get is the cone travelling beyond where the voice coil wants it to be as a result of momentum and then you have the entire cone assembly (including the voicecoil neck and suspension) travelling outwards at full signal, then your amp tells it to stop going that way because that is the most it can put out, and the voice coil will try to make the assembly stay put, so the voice coil wants to go stop and the rest of the assembly wants to continue on its way, which it will to some extent, and when you combine that with the added heat that is being generated, it doesn't take long before your voice coils decide they don't want to be a part of the moving assembly and they unwind and start to short on the magnet; enter your crackling sound when you push the speakers in.
I've seen this happen at the very least 50 times in my life, and although there are limits, the fact is you can blow a set of 80wrms speakers with a mosfet deck that only puts out 22wrms per channel.
You can also blow a 400wrms sub with a 200wrms amp, very easily as it is much harder to hear amplifier clipping when your sub is in your trunk and its suspension will not resonate high frequencies.
If you have some time on your hands (which I doubt considering how much time you spend polluting the audio community with filth), take your guitar, plug it into a distortion pedal, adjust the distortion to the sharpest setting, plug it into your computer and do some level adjustment, strike a chord and then look at the wave on your computer. See any square waves? even the sharpest setting on a distortion pedal will not create a square wave, it will have a flat top, but it will most definately NOT have sharp angles on it as you would see with an amp clipping that same signal.
-R.G. Keen - Geo-Fex Cybernetic Music
Moral of the story, don't get your car audio done in Regina or read AudioJunkies.com
you cannot blow a 2kw sub with a 10wrms amp, there are limits. I can plug my w15gti's into the wall and watch them sing at 60hz, but if I were to square wave them at 1000watts (and they are thermally rated for 5000w), they would eventually burn. You can obviously blow a 200wrms sub with a 100wrms amp or even a 50wrms amp.
when you are running a perfect sine wave at 100watts, your average power is much lower than that, as only the peaks are at 100watts - and that is with a constant wave, most bass has breaks in between. however when you start to square wave that 100 watts, your amp spends more time at its peak (the top of the square wave) and the change between +100 watts and -100 watts is shorter, so your average power gets very close to 100 watts, therefore outputting more than a 200w amp would without clipping and creating a lot more stress on the voice coil as square waves are much more difficult for the cone/suspension to follow -- what you will get is the cone travelling beyond where the voice coil wants it to be as a result of momentum and then you have the entire cone assembly (including the voicecoil neck and suspension) travelling outwards at full signal, then your amp tells it to stop going that way because that is the most it can put out, and the voice coil will try to make the assembly stay put, so the voice coil wants to go stop and the rest of the assembly wants to continue on its way, which it will to some extent, and when you combine that with the added heat that is being generated, it doesn't take long before your voice coils decide they don't want to be a part of the moving assembly and they unwind and start to short on the magnet; enter your crackling sound when you push the speakers in.
I've seen this happen at the very least 50 times in my life, and although there are limits, the fact is you can blow a set of 80wrms speakers with a mosfet deck that only puts out 22wrms per channel.
You can also blow a 400wrms sub with a 200wrms amp, very easily as it is much harder to hear amplifier clipping when your sub is in your trunk and its suspension will not resonate high frequencies.
If you have some time on your hands (which I doubt considering how much time you spend polluting the audio community with filth), take your guitar, plug it into a distortion pedal, adjust the distortion to the sharpest setting, plug it into your computer and do some level adjustment, strike a chord and then look at the wave on your computer. See any square waves? even the sharpest setting on a distortion pedal will not create a square wave, it will have a flat top, but it will most definately NOT have sharp angles on it as you would see with an amp clipping that same signal.
REALLLY clipping the sine wave gives a sound that's a high gain, hard edged metal kind of sound. Lots of heavy metal distortion pedals pedals do this then round the corners with some filtering.
Moral of the story, don't get your car audio done in Regina or read AudioJunkies.com
Last edited by tg989; 08-08-2007 at 10:47 AM.
08-08-2007, 10:57 AM
#20
Originally Posted by tg989
dude you're mentally retarded.
Originally Posted by tg989
you cannot blow a 2kw sub with a 10wrms amp, there are limits. I can plug my w15gti's into the wall and watch them sing at 60hz, but if I were to square wave them at 1000watts (and they are thermally rated for 5000w), they would eventually burn. You can obviously blow a 200wrms sub with a 100wrms amp or even a 50wrms amp.
Originally Posted by tg989
when you are running a perfect sine wave at 100watts, your average power is much lower than that, as only the peaks are at 100watts - and that is with a constant wave, most bass has breaks in between. however when you start to square wave that 100 watts, your amp spends more time at its peak (the top of the square wave) and the change between +100 watts and -100 watts is shorter, so your average power gets very close to 100 watts, therefore outputting more than a 200w amp would without clipping
Originally Posted by tg989
and creating a lot more stress on the voice coil as square waves are much more difficult for the cone/suspension to follow -- what you will get is the cone travelling beyond where the voice coil wants it to be as a result of momentum and then you have the entire cone assembly (including the voicecoil neck and suspension) travelling outwards at full signal, then your amp tells it to stop going that way because that is the most it can put out, and the voice coil will try to make the assembly stay put, so the voice coil wants to go stop and the rest of the assembly wants to continue on its way, which it will to some extent, and when you combine that with the added heat that is being generated, it doesn't take long before your voice coils decide they don't want to be a part of the moving assembly and they unwind and start to short on the magnet; enter your crackling sound when you push the speakers in.
Originally Posted by tg989
You can also blow a 400wrms sub with a 200wrms amp, very easily as it is much harder to hear amplifier clipping when your sub is in your trunk and its suspension will not resonate high frequencies.
Originally Posted by tg989
Moral of the story, don't get your car audio done in Regina.
Since it is clear that you are unwilling to listen to what I have to say, here are a couple quotes from well known industry experts:
Originally Posted by Mark Eldridge
Too much power is the ONLY thing that will destroy a well built speaker.
Originally Posted by Manville Smith
The only thing that thermally damages speakers is power... more specifically: average power over time.........The fact that a signal is clipped does not make it inherently damaging... if the average power of the clipped signal is low it won't ever damage a speaker.
Originally Posted by Richard Clark
once again bottom line---------clipping does not hurt speakers-------excessive power that results in too much heat and/or displacement is what damages speakers and it doesn't matter what the wave shape is and no wave shape is more or less likely than any other to create either ..............RC
