but with the "gadgets" you bash you can make all the xover adjustments, phase adjustments etc in seconds not minutes hours or even days. you can also build a great front end and use the processing available today to make it amazing, whacker, have you ever had the opportunity to use a digtal processor like the pxah700/900 or the dqt/qx, if so what did you think. if you could get to the same place faster using new technology, would you, or is that what you mean by taking the fun out of it?

First of all, weather you are tuning for 1 seat or 2, start with the best signal possible. For some, this is a killer head unit. For others, this is a head unit/processor with an optical link.

I don't see the P9 combo, or Alpine deck/PXA combo's as gadgets. I see them as a music playback system in 2 boxes. This is very common in high end home audio, with a separate transport and DAC for playing back CDs. The fact that the P9 and PXA setups also can do other processing is a bonus. But, right from the start they boast better DACs and output stages than most all decks.

And just to clarify, I'm not just refering to the DAC chip being better. I'm refering to the entire electronics package supporting the chip, and the anologue output stage being superior.

Tuning for both sides of the car is a very difficult task. I've been fortunate to have some fun tools to work with, but in the end I've found one glaring fault in my system. I'll talk about this later.

Right now I want to talk about tonality, and how real music sounds when ignoring imaging. The best way to do this, is to run ONLY the right or left channel and do a bit of listening. How enjoyable is the music when you try this? Do you hear areas that don't sound real? Identify those areas, and log them. (it's good to write this stuff down...helps organize thoughts) My point here, is that having a convincing image will be more deppendant on things being tonally correct than how intensity balanced (balance of the left and right side's output) or time aligned the driver's are.

Now, I'm betting that the left and right side sounded different when listening to each one separately. The difference will be minor in some cars...and big in others. The goal here is to make both sides sound the same, from both the passenger side, and drivers side seating positoin. Taking notes while you tune, will allow you to examine how different approaches affected the sound. It's not always possible to remember all this stuff, and after studying it carefully, I usually find trends that are worth pursuing to get to my goals. Write stuff down...it helps.

My glaring fault: My midrange installation sucks butt.

I've got some great tuning aids in my processor, but I'm using them as a band aid or a crutch. Sure processors are great at fixing problems, but you've got to admit, that starting with as few problems as possible is the best way. Right now...my problems are beyond my processor's influence.

My head unit/processor combo is fantastic. It's so good that my faults in other areas become easily audible. The weaknesses in my midrange reproduction are easily heard, and despite powerful processing, I'm still left with something that doesn't quite sound right.

To me, this is a great learning experience....and I think most here that know me, realize I'm having a ton of fun. Fatwhacker, I understand your point of view. It's a pretty valid point for people looking for OK or good sound. But for me, there will NEVER be a replacement for proper driver installation. Even with processing up the ying yang, I'm still working my butt off to get the most out of my drivers with a killer install.

I'll probably end up having 6 preset parameters in my processor. I listen to music in 2 drastically different environments; when I'm parked and when I'm driving. I think everyone can relate to the differences between a parked vehicle and a vehicle in motion. So with that in mind, I'd tune the following:

1.) Optimized for both seats parked
2.) Optimized for the passenger's seat parked
3.) Optimized for the driver's seat parked
4.) Optimized for both seats driving
5.) Optimized for the passenger's seat driving
6.) Optimized for the driver's seat driving

So in this capacity, yes I agree that processors are gadgets. But... I think my point about the DAC is also valid.

Adam

Right now, I don't tune it at all for Left or Right. Right now I just want my Linkin Park REALLY REALLY LOUD :D So.......... so that being said, a pair of TREO 15" are now residing in my garage and my mind is whirling with ideas on a simple but effective Infinite Baffle setup under the rear deck. Next, three-ways up front off a passive X-over setup. Funny, my high school side of me is rearing it's ugly head. Any of you old bastards ever have that come back and haunt you?!?!??!?! I don't think it's gonna be pretty. [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

WTF Tom....you doing the Tarantualas or what?

[QUOTE]
So in this capacity, yes I agree that processors are gadgets. But... I think my point about the DAC is also valid.

a very important "gadget" for what you are trying to accomplish, do you think you could attain your untimate goal without it, i expect not or you wouldnt have gotten it. tuning for both or one seat only is challenging, i always set for drivers side a a priority, then both after that. few of the cars i do ever see a competition lane(where i live there are few sanctioned shows and iasca is a joke, topic for another thread) so the priority is the driver as it unlikely that anyone driving in the passenger seat would appreciate what they are listening to, i suppose that if more of the cars we did competed there would be more time spent on tuning for both seats, but thats not the case, and anybody who thinks tuning for the drivers seat only is easier, you are mistaken, it is just as time consuming as tuning for both seats [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

Thats exactly what I mean. I guess my train of thought comes from my compition days where we focused most of our time on the install and not buying a piece of electronics that makes up flaws in our installs. If somthing didn't sound right, I would rebuild until it did. I agree with PEI, that processing shouldn't be used as a band aid or a crutch. IMO you should be able to bypass any processing in a system and it should still sound respectable.
Now I am not saying that processing doesn't have a place in car audio because it does. And if you talk to 10 different people, I'll bet that you will get 10 different answers as to what they would use the processing for.
But I do disagree that tuning for 1 seat is just as easy as 2. You are dealing with double the amount of variables in the situation. There will always be 1 seat a little bit better than the other, but you should be able to get both seat dialed in pretty good. I have heard some great sounding cars which sound good from both seats. Its unfortunate that most compitions have gone to a 1 seat judging. It allows the guys with the time processing and such to beat up the guys who spend countless hours of building and listening time, just by purchasing a "gadget".

Good debate.

Defro,

H900 is the best audio "gadget" I have ever owned. I don't ever expect to sell it.

I know for a fact that my audio goals are not attainable without it. I've searched for other products, but have come up short....way short. (Including Wadia and Theta home D/A converters)

A long time ago I talked about how I wanted to do a 2 seat car. It's still a goal of mine.

Adam

fat whacker, the bar should be set higher for 1 seat judging, they are in my book at least, which makes tuning just as time comsuming because imo the expectations should be higher,

processing shouldnt be used a bandaid or crutch, but as a tool, not unlike an analyzer, would you agree that coupled with a great install that the processors of today, you can get a better sq vehicle than that of processors of days gone by, like the eqt, alesis, eq232, rane, the older analog stuff, lets say you had a car that sounded great with a phoenix gold eq232, removed it and inserted a pxah700(same cost approx), and changed nothing else, could you imporove the way your car sounded with the new eq given an adequate time to tune. i agree fun debate [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

Lets see....

defro is stuck playing Iron Maiden one track at a time over...and over..and over again

Tom is blasting Linkin Park at %20 distortion...

Fat Whacker is having a debate with himself about Warren Miller...


The Niwranski brothers are looking for a salesman...

...and I'm wondering why in Gods name have I spent soooooo much money on an in car juke box.

Life at CCA is never boring...

my #1 refernce track for tuning is "revelations" of piece of mind, got a problem with that. :D

we should all bow down at the alter of the metal lords and give thanks to them for creating the best metal band in the history of the world [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img] ..... i can hear the chants now....maiden...maiden...maiden...maiden...maiden [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img] scream for me canada, scream for me