3 way up front, positioning
 

Hey all,

So I have have a 3 way component system I am going to put in my car. I was wondering for SQ, which setup is better;

Midbass in the door, midrange and tweeter a kick panel

or

midbass in a kick, midrange and tweeter in the door

My vote goes to #1 :thumbsup:

I must admit, I've never tried the latter. But I've gotten great results with mids and tweets in the kicks, midbass in the doors.

I take this approach on all my cars for 2 reasons:
1) I believe equal PLD (path length differences) are more important in 200Hz-20Khz range rather than the midbass freqs.
2) It's much easier to get good midbass in well sealed doors rather than kicks which are almost always too small.

Hope that helps.

G.

I guess you could always try it out first by building some boxes before you commit.

why not tweeters in the a pillers ?
move them higher then the door

mid bass in the door (more omni directionnal)

midrange and main tweeter in kickpod ( oriented opposite side)

image tweeter in the a pillar

if you have only one pair of tweeter try both a-pillar and kickpod to see if in the kickpod you image is enough high..

midrange and main tweeter in A pillar.

My vote goes to #1 and it's approximately what I'd do, but only tweeter in the a-pil.
I'm also concerned with with functionality and no bling bling steal me screaming look. Otherwise I'd put a midrange in a-pil.

Last time I checked my ears weren't on my feet. :)

The higher frequencies are definately "line of sight" so, the higher, or more accurately... the more direct path to your ears, the better. High in the door or in the A-pillar makes the most sense.

Choice number 1. I don't like splitting up the mid and tweet, they cover a range that either speaker can be reproducing the same instrument (yes I know this could apply to the midbass as well, but you can't usually fit all three in the same space, so I consider this the lesser of two evils). Mids and tweets on the dash at the far corners and midbass in the kicks is how mine is set up now, If I can find the space (and time to build it) I'll move the midbass up there too.
I am also not opposed to a nice small set of tweeters with minimal power crossed over in the 16k+ range at eye level in the a pillars. But that would be icing on the cake in an otherwise complete front stage, I would rather put those resources into a better set of main speakers first.

Be careful... the further you get the tweeter from the midrange the more separation you'll have... which will kill image accuracy... rather than a solid point source it will sound be ... since it will seem as though the singer is coming from both the tweeter and midrange...
You can have very high image with the tweets and midranges in the kicks together... it's all in aiming and tuning... the only time I suggest running tweets on the dash is with a CDT Audio Upstage series set... reason being that it is crossed high enough to not cause this problem.

Also not all tweeters sound nice pointed directly at the listener (on axis)... this is especially true for most metal dome tweeters which will seem to harsh/shrill... by aiming them off axis it will smooth out the response.



As far as placement goes... I find Gleepoy hit it on the button... place the midranges in the kicks and the midbass in the door... the higher a freqency is, the shorter the wavelength and therefore the more easily it can be localized... therefore to keep the image in front of the listener it's best to keep the midrange in the kicks.

Also by placing both drivers as far forward as possible it will minimize PLD's (path length differences) which will help out with phase problems and imaging... however don't place them so far forward that they'll be cramped up under your dash, as you can start to have resonance problems etc.

Last of all, it's much easier to place a smaller midrange in your kicks than it is to place a larger midbass driver and give it the volume needed for proper midbass response.

Best of luck and take your time... proper aiming and setup of a 3-way set is what makes a 3-way set so great...
It's even more important than the actual speakers being used.

A good place to start is with drivers side speaker pointing just in front of the passengers head and the passenger side speaker pointing just in front of the drivers head.
Play from here to get the sound as close to perfect as possible.
From here a bit of time delay and EQ will have you in heaven. :)

I disagree. With tweeters in the kicks...if it sounds like it's coming from below, you're doing something wrong.

^^^
Wrong YES (sort of), but it's a pretty fine line. It's really hard to get a perfectly flat stage up nice and high. Even many of the best sounding cars have trouble with this.

Without the use of processing, I will opt for Kickpanel placement over Dash any time. Further to that, I don't support the idea of a midrange up on the dash at all if one wants a car enjoyable from both front seats.

^^^I agree with Dukk there. There arent many cars that image well from both seats that have the midrange up high. I'm thinking of putting my midrange up high and I know going into it that my car will be a one seat wonder.

^ that is quite true.

The mids in my car are in the kicks. but sonically they are transparent..... you could try to listen for it down there. but they're up on the dash. and that goes for the midbass in the doors as well.

..psychoacoustics for the win!! :)

Maybe, but consol, steering wheel etc...have ALOT of effect with this. Tweeter and mid in the a-pillar facing towards the center will eliminate the basis on the side your listening to. IMO, its the best way to get imaging from both seats without any processing. "...without any processing" I agree that this should be thought of in every installation.

If you're implying that you can only have one or the other (high coherent stage or a system that sounds good from both seats)...I disagree with you.

I understand what you're saying and you raise valid points.

However, I disagree with the generalization that one method is better than the other though.

However, in my own experiences, without the use of processing...and in terms of imaging well from both seats, I have gotten the best results by minimizing PLD. In all cases this meant tweets and mids in the kicks.

Assuming that processing is used to counteract the effects of PLD's and phase problems with dash mounted mids and tweets, would you still get a one seat wonder?

Hi Eddie,

It depends how big the PLD's are. The bigger the PLD's are, the more time alignment you need. The more time alignment you need, the more it becomes a "one-seat-wonder".

The problem isnt with the tweet (assuming its crossed over high).. PLD are in the mid freq's from about 300 to 4khz about..

Time alignment when used to adjust the PLD's from the left side to the right can only help one seat. Think about it. Lets say the driver finds center in the middle of the dash.. But the passanger finds it directly in front of him.. So you add alignment to the right side mid.. That in theory would move the center image for the passanger side closer to the center of the car.. But what about the drivers side? By moving the right side mid further away has now moved its center image to the left of center.

P.S. time alignment is really not made for aligning the left side speaker to the right side.. its made for aligning the speakers of the same channel, for example the left side mid to the right side tweet. There is tech-brief in the autosound-2000 techbriefs about how the patent holder for "time-alignment" was thinking about sueing car electronic manufactures for the improper use of the term/patent.

Oh, i have never heard a car with mids above the dash that i liked, and/or imaged properly from both seats.

"If you're implying that you can only have one or the other (high coherent stage or a system that sounds good from both seats)...I disagree with you."



Not at all gleepoy. I've had the chance to listen to some of the best sounding cars in the world. So I know that you CANhave good tonality and stage in the same car. Trouble is, it's hard to do. And by mounting your mids in the pillars I think you are making it harder to get both seats to sound good. I know that I'm going to have a one seat wonder due to the locations I've choosen. But I'm hoping that the advantages will outway all other problems.