Components without crossovers?
05-02-2006, 08:42 AM
#1
Components without crossovers?
Can I buy 2-way components without the passive crossovers they all seem to come with?
I already have a Kicker 2-way crossover and i'm using a pioneer 5100T for each door giving me 125w rms @ 4 ohm for each mid and each high. 2 ohm would be 190 each.
The mount that came with the car is made for 5-1/4 but i think i could modify it some to fit in 6-1/2?
Any suggestions?
Thanx,
Tom
Ajax, ON
I already have a Kicker 2-way crossover and i'm using a pioneer 5100T for each door giving me 125w rms @ 4 ohm for each mid and each high. 2 ohm would be 190 each.
The mount that came with the car is made for 5-1/4 but i think i could modify it some to fit in 6-1/2?
Any suggestions?
Thanx,
Tom
Ajax, ON
05-02-2006, 11:01 AM
#2
just ignore the the crossover that has the flatter slope or which ever suits your set up best.
db slope how harshly the frequency falls of. thats whats i would go with.
if you find your to strong at a certain frequency then your slope would help.
db slope how harshly the frequency falls of. thats whats i would go with.
if you find your to strong at a certain frequency then your slope would help.
05-02-2006, 02:52 PM
#3
this is not necessarily a straigt forward question. Very elementary cross over designs consider the driver impedance, say 4 ohm, the crossover frequency, and the slope. Most lower cost outboard crossovers have 6 or 12 db/octave slope for the woofer, and 12 db for the tweeter.
this means that if the crossover freqeuncy is 3.5Khz, Both the tweet and woofer would be 3 db down at 3.5Khz. A 6db slope on the woofer would mean that it is 9 db down at 7 Khz (1 octave is half or double). For the tweeter, a 12 db slope would mean it is 15db down at 1.75 Khz.
The slope means how fast does the filter cut the frequency in question. You want to cut the frequences because the driver can no longer handle them. A woofer cannot go to high, it will sound bad, a tweeter cannot go too low, it will also distort, overload and melt. Higher power systems tend to have higher slopes in order to cut the low frequencies to the tweeter faster, and if you go to lower crossover frequency, you may need a higher slope also, for the same reason.
Having said this, yes you can mix crossovers and get OK results as long as you stay within the recommended cross over range. However, in better crossovers you find in higher end components are designed specifically for the driver and is no longer an elementary text book cross over. The crossover frequency, slope and design impedance is fine tuned for the specific woofer and tweeter because in real life the woofer and tweeter impedance is complex, not just a resistance, and it varies with frequency.
Case in point. I am using Pioneer kevlar 6x8 coax in my doors (they have built in crossovers) but I am using a polk crossover for the Vifa tweeters on my dash. Not perfect, but sounds OK for now. They where cheap!. The crossovers will be the next upgrade I do. Either I will design a proper one, or I will use an external electronic crossover and separate amp for the tweeter. There are currently a number of Pioner CD 635 crossovers on ebay real cheap I picked up 2 for under $15 each.
this means that if the crossover freqeuncy is 3.5Khz, Both the tweet and woofer would be 3 db down at 3.5Khz. A 6db slope on the woofer would mean that it is 9 db down at 7 Khz (1 octave is half or double). For the tweeter, a 12 db slope would mean it is 15db down at 1.75 Khz.
The slope means how fast does the filter cut the frequency in question. You want to cut the frequences because the driver can no longer handle them. A woofer cannot go to high, it will sound bad, a tweeter cannot go too low, it will also distort, overload and melt. Higher power systems tend to have higher slopes in order to cut the low frequencies to the tweeter faster, and if you go to lower crossover frequency, you may need a higher slope also, for the same reason.
Having said this, yes you can mix crossovers and get OK results as long as you stay within the recommended cross over range. However, in better crossovers you find in higher end components are designed specifically for the driver and is no longer an elementary text book cross over. The crossover frequency, slope and design impedance is fine tuned for the specific woofer and tweeter because in real life the woofer and tweeter impedance is complex, not just a resistance, and it varies with frequency.
Case in point. I am using Pioneer kevlar 6x8 coax in my doors (they have built in crossovers) but I am using a polk crossover for the Vifa tweeters on my dash. Not perfect, but sounds OK for now. They where cheap!. The crossovers will be the next upgrade I do. Either I will design a proper one, or I will use an external electronic crossover and separate amp for the tweeter. There are currently a number of Pioner CD 635 crossovers on ebay real cheap I picked up 2 for under $15 each.
05-02-2006, 02:56 PM
#4
As for the 5100T. Use the 4 ohm spec as a woofer and tweeter together really is only 4 ohms....Actually it varies with frequency but that is getting complicated.
What are you using as a sub amp? What deck do you have?
What woofer and tweeter are you planning to use? Did you buy them already? If not, I would suggest staying with the supplied crossover.
What are you using as a sub amp? What deck do you have?
What woofer and tweeter are you planning to use? Did you buy them already? If not, I would suggest staying with the supplied crossover.
05-02-2006, 03:15 PM
#5
Thank you for the replies. So far, I found out I can buy CDT components separately. From past posts I’ve read, CDT has a pretty good rep. I'm looking at the HD line.
More info; the rear of the car will have 2 CVR15's, each with a bridged 5100T and Pioneer 4-way 6x9's, each with a bridged 5100T. With lots of power in the back, I need power in the doors to move my soundstage up front. That's why I’m looking for high-end components that can do 125 wrms on each tweeter and each mid.
I have an Alpine 9855 and 2 cd changers, but for lack of oem replacement modules, I’m hooking this up with the stock HU for now.
In the 'for sale' forum, I’ve listed the speakers I used to use as "components" in my last car; JL 6" woofers and eclipse 5-1/4" 3-way.
More info; the rear of the car will have 2 CVR15's, each with a bridged 5100T and Pioneer 4-way 6x9's, each with a bridged 5100T. With lots of power in the back, I need power in the doors to move my soundstage up front. That's why I’m looking for high-end components that can do 125 wrms on each tweeter and each mid.
I have an Alpine 9855 and 2 cd changers, but for lack of oem replacement modules, I’m hooking this up with the stock HU for now.
In the 'for sale' forum, I’ve listed the speakers I used to use as "components" in my last car; JL 6" woofers and eclipse 5-1/4" 3-way.
05-02-2006, 03:47 PM
#6
do you mean each sub will have a bridged 5100T and
each 6x9 will also have a bridged 5100T? That is a lot of power to the 6x9s and most would agree kind of overkill, particularly for the rear.
If you already have all the amps, then try using 2x 5100T up front, using external electronic crossovers, or the ones built into your Alpine CDA9855. But even that is an awfull lot of power. Many many good SQ systems run beautifully off of 4x50 watt amps in front. I have a RF 4x50 watts sharing the front and rears, and it is too loud for extended periods.
each 6x9 will also have a bridged 5100T? That is a lot of power to the 6x9s and most would agree kind of overkill, particularly for the rear.
If you already have all the amps, then try using 2x 5100T up front, using external electronic crossovers, or the ones built into your Alpine CDA9855. But even that is an awfull lot of power. Many many good SQ systems run beautifully off of 4x50 watt amps in front. I have a RF 4x50 watts sharing the front and rears, and it is too loud for extended periods.
05-02-2006, 04:06 PM
#7
Originally Posted by zoomer
try using 2x 5100T up front, using external electronic crossovers
What I asked about was recomendations for component speakers? particlarly can i buy them without the crossovers. I could buy mids from company A and tweets from company B, but I'd really like them to match, like they were made to compliment each other.
BTW, the pioneer 4-way 6x9's sound great, each on a 380 wrms amp. The idea is to never ever, never ever hit clipping. Extra headroom = SQ.
More speakers are fried with distortion than with power...Haven't tried the kickers yet, building a box and biulding it in.
05-03-2006, 08:46 AM
#8
Tom
You were asking for suggestions, but do not seem to want any. You made statements in your first post that did not make sense such as "2 ohm would be 190 each". Yes that is the spec but how would it apply to a typically 4 ohm mid and tweeter?
Your simple question about buying midwoofers and tweeters separately without crossovers seemed like you did not know some of the basics of car audio. The reason that most kits are sold with crossovers is that it is a difficult design task to make a high quality crossover that gets the maximum permormance from the mid and tweeter. They are designed so that they compensate the woofer and tweeter's wild impedance variations at resonance, and may even to some frequency response adjustemnts. To do that they have to be designed for the specific drivers. Any 4 ohm crossover at 3-5 KHz will work, but will not be optimum. You will find alot of information on crossovers on the web, most are very basic and do not cover more complex designs that include Zobel networks.
Designing a car audio system for best SQ is a complex task and is not solved simply by throwing power at it. Your rear 6x9 speakers will distort when pushed with a fraction of the 380 watts you are making availalble to them. I was just suggesting that your hard hearned cash may be better put on other parts of the system.
But you seemed to only want yes/no answers, and then only when they confirm your ideas.
Bottom line, Do whatever you want.
You were asking for suggestions, but do not seem to want any. You made statements in your first post that did not make sense such as "2 ohm would be 190 each". Yes that is the spec but how would it apply to a typically 4 ohm mid and tweeter?
Your simple question about buying midwoofers and tweeters separately without crossovers seemed like you did not know some of the basics of car audio. The reason that most kits are sold with crossovers is that it is a difficult design task to make a high quality crossover that gets the maximum permormance from the mid and tweeter. They are designed so that they compensate the woofer and tweeter's wild impedance variations at resonance, and may even to some frequency response adjustemnts. To do that they have to be designed for the specific drivers. Any 4 ohm crossover at 3-5 KHz will work, but will not be optimum. You will find alot of information on crossovers on the web, most are very basic and do not cover more complex designs that include Zobel networks.
Designing a car audio system for best SQ is a complex task and is not solved simply by throwing power at it. Your rear 6x9 speakers will distort when pushed with a fraction of the 380 watts you are making availalble to them. I was just suggesting that your hard hearned cash may be better put on other parts of the system.
But you seemed to only want yes/no answers, and then only when they confirm your ideas.
Bottom line, Do whatever you want.
