DLS vs Soundstream
Hey Guys,
I recently sold my Zeff built NAK amp, and I'm looking to try out something new. I have a set up K2Ps for my mid/high and an IDMAX12 in the boot. It's become pretty clear to me that a true 100w rms is not enough for the K2Ps so I'm looking for something with more oomph - but certainly am not willing to give up any SQ. There are 3 amps that I have been looking at: (new) DLS RA20 (reference line) - 450.00 Soundstream HRU.4 (same internals as original) - 499.00 (used) Arc 2150SE (cream) I am running passive right now and am happy to do so until next summer. I already have a 1000/1 running the idmax so really I will only be using 2 channels from the human reign if I go that direction for now. Please do not make your recommendaitons based on flexibility - rather only on your own experience, and even better, experience listening to any of these on K2Ps. Obviously the focals are forward and bright in the highs, and I would love to tame them a bit if possible, but not if it means compromising the mids. Any suggestions would be great! The more detailed your reasoning the better! Cheers, |
Sorry - for what it's worth - the power ratings are as follows.
DLS RA20 - 130rms x 2 @4 SS HRU.4 - 140rms x 4 @4 ARC 2150se - 150rms x 2 @4 |
Originally Posted by 33seven
(Post 660339)
Hey Guys,
I recently sold my Zeff built NAK amp, and I'm looking to try out something new. I have a set up K2Ps for my mid/high and an IDMAX12 in the boot. It's become pretty clear to me that a true 100w rms is not enough for the K2Ps so I'm looking for something with more oomph - but certainly am not willing to give up any SQ. There are 3 amps that I have been looking at: (new) DLS RA20 (reference line) - 450.00 Soundstream HRU.4 (same internals as original) - 499.00 (used) Arc 2150SE (cream) I am running passive right now and am happy to do so until next summer. I already have a 1000/1 running the idmax so really I will only be using 2 channels from the human reign if I go that direction for now. Please do not make your recommendaitons based on flexibility - rather only on your own experience, and even better, experience listening to any of these on K2Ps. Obviously the focals are forward and bright in the highs, and I would love to tame them a bit if possible, but not if it means compromising the mids. Any suggestions would be great! The more detailed your reasoning the better! Cheers, DLS - NO comment (never used) ARC Audio 2150 is a very well built amplifier with SQ oriented people in mind. If you can afford the AEC SE 2300 I would go that route for added power buffer-especially since you are running passives that kill dampening factor. Hope this help and good luck with your search btw ARC SE 2300 BNIB RETAIL is $1349 well worth it |
You were selling a 2150se back in the summer were you not?
I assume that is long gone? If so, know anyone selling a 2150 or 2300 on here? |
Originally Posted by 33seven
(Post 660370)
You were selling a 2150se back in the summer were you not?
I assume that is long gone? If so, know anyone selling a 2150 or 2300 on here? Check here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/ |
Yeah we need high damping factor because passives kill damping hahaha
Just do like any sane person does when they want a ton of power. Bridge a 4 channel. The HU amp is huge and IMO doesn't even look nice (although maybe they are better in person). BTW going from 100 to 150 would yeild a slight audible difference but not worth it IMO. You need to at least double your power for it to be noticable... this is where bridging comes in. |
Doesn't dampening go to hell when you bridge though? I thought I understood that bridging also messes with the imaging of the sound as well.
I was looking at a tru tech 4.65 that bridges to 200x2 @4ohm but my concern was of course the above mentioned. I've though of going full active - but it always seems strange to me to run a 4 channel amp that puts out say 100x4 and have 100 watts going to the tweets too - is there really NO drawback to dropping your gains way way down for the the 2 channels the tweeters run on? Thoughts? |
The damping factor will halve when you bridge the amp. The distortion doubles too. Neither are audible anyway so do not let this deter you in the least. The argument could also be made that you are not going to have to push your 200watts nearly as hard as the 100watts to get it to the same listening level so the distortion you can't hear will be reduced and the headroom you can hear will be increased.
If the choice though is to run double bridged through passives or be 4ch active, go active. If you do double bridge, make sure you use both lefts for one pair of channels and both rights for the other pair of channels to arrive at a bridged left and bridged right. |
Forgive me if I am missing something from the original post, by why would you not get the Soundstream HR and run active? That would give you 140W for each of the mids and allow you to dial in the tweeters however you like (to tame them)
You didn't mention which K2P you are running, but even the 165 KRX2 are specc'd at 100W RMS, 200W max ... so a clean 140W should keep them (and you) very happy. |
Where I get stuck on going active is, for the quality of amp I want, I can generally only afford something in the 60-80w x4 range.
I have the K2P UV 6.5 components and the mids are power hungry. If I run active, I don't think even 80 watts is enough power for them so I look for 4 channels so I'd have to find an amp with more oomph. There are two reasons I'm hesitant about the SS Human Reign is 1) It's fecking enormous and I drive a VW golf 2) I've heard more than a few people saying it's not the same quality amp as it's ugly predecessor. (prove me wrong please) Then - lets say I can find a place to mount the hru.4, I have to pray my 140amp alt and kinetik hc1800 can power it along with my JL 1000/1. *** So here is a couple more questions*** 1. Do A/B amps or class D amps with regulated power supplies pull full amperage regardless of what the gains are set to? - or if say I have the gains on the tweeter channels of a 4 channel active amp turned way down - that amp will behave like a smaller amp in terms of current draw? 2. Do you loose some of the signal/fidelity (is there effectively a "dumbing down" of the signal) when you reduce gains? And theoretically, would running 80 watts @ 60% gain sound any better/different than running 140 watts @ 30% gain on the highs? The thought of running a channel that produces over 100 watts to a tweeter just feels weird to me. 3. THIS ONE HOPEFULLY HAS AN OBJECTIVE ANSWER. Will my focal components(both woofer and tweeter - no playing favourites) be happier on 200x2 passive, or 65x4 active? Sorry for just spilling my brain all over the page.... I think i asked more like 10 questions in there, but thanks in advance for anyone who is staying on-board :) |
Originally Posted by 33seven
(Post 660494)
Where I get stuck on going active is, for the quality of amp I want, I can generally only afford something in the 60-80w x4 range.
Here is what affects the sound the most Environment install (enclosures, aiming, tuning, ect) source recording (not the deck but how the song was recorded) speakers amount of power and everything else is equaly as unimportant after that. I have the K2P UV 6.5 components and the mids are power hungry. If I run active, I don't think even 80 watts is enough power for them so I look for 4 channels so I'd have to find an amp with more oomph. There are two reasons I'm hesitant about the SS Human Reign is 1) It's fecking enormous and I drive a VW golf 2) I've heard more than a few people saying it's not the same quality amp as it's ugly predecessor. (prove me wrong please) Basically everything else in the system matters more then what amp you choose hehe. When it comes to electronics, every year everything gets better and smaller and more powerfull and efficient be it for computers, phones everything (amplifiers are certanly not an acceptio to this rule). I can't imagine still running old innificient sonicaly indistinguishable huge amps... there is no benefit. Then - lets say I can find a place to mount the hru.4, I have to pray my 140amp alt and kinetik hc1800 can power it along with my JL 1000/1. 1. Do A/B amps or class D amps with regulated power supplies pull full amperage regardless of what the gains are set to? - or if say I have the gains on the tweeter channels of a 4 channel active amp turned way down - that amp will behave like a smaller amp in terms of current draw? As for the gain, its possible to have it all the way down and get the maximum power out of your amp. The gain is there to match to the head unit output. But when the gains for your tweets are lower then your mids then they will get less power relative to yours mids. 2. Do you loose some of the signal/fidelity (is there effectively a "dumbing down" of the signal) when you reduce gains? And theoretically, would running 80 watts @ 60% gain sound any better/different than running 140 watts @ 30% gain on the highs? The thought of running a channel that produces over 100 watts to a tweeter just feels weird to me. Tweeters can take powa, don't worry about it ha! All us active folks know it. 3. THIS ONE HOPEFULLY HAS AN OBJECTIVE ANSWER. Will my focal components(both woofer and tweeter - no playing favourites) be happier on 200x2 passive, or 65x4 active? Sorry for just spilling my brain all over the page.... I think i asked more like 10 questions in there, but thanks in advance for anyone who is staying on-board :) You ask good questions and have an open mind, it makes for great discussion. |
@ 33seven
Where I get stuck on going active is, for the quality of amp I want, I can generally only afford something in the 60-80w x4 range. I have the K2P UV 6.5 components and the mids are power hungry. If I run active, I don't think even 80 watts is enough power for them so I look for 4 channels so I'd have to find an amp with more oomph. There are two reasons I'm hesitant about the SS Human Reign is 1) It's fecking enormous and I drive a VW golf 2) I've heard more than a few people saying it's not the same quality amp as it's ugly predecessor. (prove me wrong please) Then - lets say I can find a place to mount the hru.4, I have to pray my 140amp alt and kinetik hc1800 can power it along with my JL 1000/1. 1. Do A/B amps or class D amps with regulated power supplies pull full amperage regardless of what the gains are set to? say I have the gains on the tweeter channels of a 4 channel active amp turned way down - that amp will behave like a smaller amp in terms of current draw? 2. Do you loose some of the signal/fidelity (is there effectively a "dumbing down" of the signal) when you reduce gains? would running 80 watts @ 60% gain sound any better/different than running 140 watts @ 30% gain on the highs? Will my focal components(both woofer and tweeter - no playing favourites) be happier on 200x2 passive, or 65x4 active? @ Aaaaaaa The difference between 80 watts and 120 is almost inaudible and not worth sweting over. |
You are saying that having am extra 1.x db it's a crap load of head room? 1db is at the fringe of audibility
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1.x dB is at the fringe of audibility? It represents a 50% increase in SPL ... since when is that considered inaudible? It's like you believe that because the dB measurement is small that somehow translates into a small real world output difference. The dB is used BECAUSE it represents large changes with small numbers.
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1DB is huge in competitions... but when talking about hearing it's a totally different subject.
Saying it represents a 50% increase in power is far different then 50% increase in SPL (which is what you are claiming). Doubling SPL is 6DB and to do this you need 4 times the power. So 50% of that is 3DB so double the power. To double loudness you need 10 times the power! (10DB increase) 50% more power translates to ruffly 1db… it’s really nothing in relationship to our hearing. http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOf...sureLevels.htm |
woah, hang on a sec here. We seem to have deviated from a coherent conversation. Let's regroup.
I started by disagreeing with you that increasing the available power by 50% would make a noticeable difference, and you are posting dB gains like the Focals are sitting on a bench in a lab. I was wrong to have said a 50% increase in power would provide a 50% increase in SPL, and I apologize for that. However, he isn't running 1kHz 0dB leveled sine waves through his speakers, he is playing music. This is more about relative power levels then averaged output. At a given listening level the amp will use various amounts of power to produce various frequencies. Assuming we don't reach the mechanical limits of the driver, any time the 80W amp would have been saturated and clipped the 120W amp will gives us more volume. The amp isn't going to clip playing the midrange frequencies, it will clip in the midbass range. We are talking about increasing the available power for lower frequencies. Our ears don't hear the midrange frequencies as being any louder, but the midbass frequencies are louder relative to the midrange because the amp is able to deliver more power for those notes without clipping. The bottom line is that if he is never driving an 80W hard enough to clip, there will be zero difference recognized by providing more power. Conversely, if he is turning up the volume and only the higher range frequencies are getting louder, he has either reached the mechanical limit of his driver, or he is clipping the amp. We can safely assume that he won't reach the mechanical limits of a K2P 6.5 with 80W, therefore more power = more volume at lower frequencies. Again, it's about him getting more low frequency sound relative to the high frequencies, not about making everything louder. Thoughts? |
No matter how you chop it up, it’s only about an extra 1 db at ALL frequencies. Can you keep over all volume the same and instead boost the low end that extra 1 db? Yeah sure .. will you hear it? 1 db is nothing.
But I always try and buy the amp with the most powa! Yeah! Also tweeters are often not 4ohms but 6 or 8...there full cutting the amplifier power at those frequencies..so it is quite possible to clip the amp with the tweeters as well depending on the set. Oh and I am sure it would be easy enough to reach x-max on those things with “only” 80 watts at 70-80 hertz and lower. |
Ok guys.
For the K2Ps 6.5 comps, for a 4 channel active amp - what is the lowest power rating that is worth doing active - before I would be better off going passive with high power input? 65w x 4? 80w x 4? 100w x 4? I know the more power I put to them the better... I get it. What I'm feeling for is the trade off point. (obviously 200x2 passive will sound better than 40x4 active given what hogs the focal woofers are) All of your suggestions are greatly appreciated. The amps I am now looking at are: 500.00 - DLS RA40 (80x4 @4, 220x2 @4 bridged) 350.00 - ARC Audio XXK 4050 (50x4 @4, 180x2 @4 bridged) 450.00 - JL Audio 450/4 (150x2 + 75x2 @4) I think the HRU.4 is out because that thing is just too bloody big. Unless someone can tell me without doubt that they are sonically every bit as good as the old ones. Thanks guys! |
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And somehow I did not see all of those responses you guys made over the last 36hrs. Thank you both for all that great information. I Doooo want my mids to hit HARD! I love midbass and I don't think the k2ps like being crossed lower than 80hz anyway, so I'd like to think they wont be reaching xmax. If you guys have any other amps you think I should be looking at that meet the following criteria, I'm all ears! *A/B class *no longer than 13" *enough output for the midbass drivers so I can feel it deep in my chest when they hit *attainable for under 500.00 (350.00 used) *IF POSSIBLE - something that will help tame the harsh tn52 tweeters. (maybe this is just a matter of tuning and making sure they get ample power) Thanks guys! |
Truly I would have a hard look at the JL XD 600/6. 75x6 that you can configure 75x2 for the tweets and 150x2 for the mids. Lots of jam.
And don't fear Class D or T or whatever. I am seriously considering two of those same JL amps myself for my next system. |
I pulled the trigger on a JL 450/4 v2
I'm going active and I suppose that will run the advertised 150x2 to my mids and since the tweets are 6-8ohm, they'll be getting 40-50 of the 75x2 from the C and D channels. Should give me a good idea/experience of what I can expect from good headroom and active control. Let you know how it goes! Thanks to everyone for chiming in. |
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