Front stage imaging - speaker positions
08-15-2005, 08:11 AM
#1
It seems that there are very few front sound stage set ups with midrange speakers mounted higher than halfway up a door. Often, the speakers are below the dash near our feet (tweeters too). Is there a SQL reason for this or can you really get good imaging with speakers down low? I have a pair of midbass speakers in my door (bottom front) and now I want to find the best spot for my midrange and tweeters. If I connect the speakers, hold them in my hands and move them up and down in the car they sound best just below ear level which is about level with the front of the dash (nowhere near the floor). That being said, my plan is to do some serious in-dash fiberglasss work and insert speakers there... Before I take on a task that is way above my head and risk killing the resale of my car (i.e. - due to melted/cracked, gaping holes left in dash, etc.) should I simply flange up a speaker pod for the floor next to the doors??
Thanks - PS, if anyone can help with fiberglass info, please see my post in the install section.
Thanks - PS, if anyone can help with fiberglass info, please see my post in the install section.
08-15-2005, 09:21 AM
#2
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 72
The type of speaker really determines the location(s) that the speaker can work properly. Is the speaker designed to work on axis(facing the listener) or off axis(speaker not facing the listener). You should look at possible mounting locations and decide from there what you want to use.
I have a Toyota Camry and my midbasses are in the front lower corners of my doors. My midrange and tweeters are located in kick panels aimed directly towards each other(not towards the listener). In fact you can't even see the tweeter from where you sit. My speakers image great. I get vocals centered well up on the dashboard. I chose MB Quart speakers because they work excellent off axis. Not the best on axis, but perfect for my application.
Just shows you don't have to make it into a big installation job, just pick the appropriate speakers. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
I have a Toyota Camry and my midbasses are in the front lower corners of my doors. My midrange and tweeters are located in kick panels aimed directly towards each other(not towards the listener). In fact you can't even see the tweeter from where you sit. My speakers image great. I get vocals centered well up on the dashboard. I chose MB Quart speakers because they work excellent off axis. Not the best on axis, but perfect for my application.
Just shows you don't have to make it into a big installation job, just pick the appropriate speakers. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
08-15-2005, 12:10 PM
#3
People choose these strange positions like the kick panels because it's all to do with equalizing pathlengths from the driver and pass. side speakers to the listeners ears. You want them as equal as possible in length to your ears in order to provide realistic imaging and instrument placement. The human ear doesn't discern height as easily as side to side, so placement in the kick panels can work well. It's not perfect mind you, but can work very well in a lot of applications. If imaging and soundstage placement doesn't concern you too much, then you don't have to worry so much about pathlengths, and placing them high up in the doors or on the dash can be fine if that is what sounds good to you. It all boils down on what YOU want and are looking for. Those who place speakers up in the a-pillars or on the dash do so in order to make sure the height of the sound is what they want. Generally this requires a lot of sound processing in order to get the image right though since the pathlength differences (commonly called PLD's) are not as equal as they could be.
08-15-2005, 01:30 PM
#4
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
ALSO with drivers mounted up very high in the vehicle it will be very very hard to get good depth and width from your vehicle. imaging cues are to a large part detrmined by sight!! if our mind can see the speaker it will naturally expect all the sound to come from there. this effect only relates to small aqustic enviroments where there are minimal reflections. if you could put the speakers up high and move the driver seat to the middle then move the seat back a couple of feet then you should receive excellent width depth and imaging. please post to defro as he is doing just this right now in his neon and may have more insight into this aqusitcal phenomenom.
08-15-2005, 02:24 PM
#5
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
I think the answer to the initial question "Is there a SQL reason for this or can you really get good imaging with speakers down low?" you can but I wouldn’t say it was easier (to have it image well) than mounting higher... the reason is usually where the space is available
Since you did the smart thing and did some homework as to where the speakers sound best, and you have a plan to do it, I wish you the best of luck. BUT this IS NOT a job for a beginner! This will be difficult and somewhat costly and that is why you see so many kick panel setups and A-pillar tweeters. They are simply easier and less expensive and you don’t have to radically alter the vehicle. The Kia is a decent sounding car if I remember right so have fun but this is a job for a pro IMO.
As stated try to keep the physical path from the drivers to your ear as close to the same as possible. Have the lower freq drivers a little closer (cm's) than the higher freq drivers if possible. Avoid early reflections off shiny hard materials like fiberglass, windshields, diamond deck etc. since that will smear imaging.
Since you did the smart thing and did some homework as to where the speakers sound best, and you have a plan to do it, I wish you the best of luck. BUT this IS NOT a job for a beginner! This will be difficult and somewhat costly and that is why you see so many kick panel setups and A-pillar tweeters. They are simply easier and less expensive and you don’t have to radically alter the vehicle. The Kia is a decent sounding car if I remember right so have fun but this is a job for a pro IMO.
As stated try to keep the physical path from the drivers to your ear as close to the same as possible. Have the lower freq drivers a little closer (cm's) than the higher freq drivers if possible. Avoid early reflections off shiny hard materials like fiberglass, windshields, diamond deck etc. since that will smear imaging.
08-15-2005, 02:52 PM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
if you want all of the sound to sound like it comes from up high you should put your speakers there. be prepared to speand a frightening amount of time getting it right. i say this because if you are going to go through the time to do it, you had better do it right. if done right you will scare the pants off most people with kick pods and and hlcd's. and for the love of god please use a very flexible electronic or digital crossover, you will need it
the best cars i heard at finals all had speakers up high and the most important thing that makes speakers up high work is a front mounted woofer. it alows you a far more flexible crossover selection as compared to rear. there are people with front mounted woofer that cross them over as high as 200-250 hz. try that with rear mounted woofers,.......uh aint gonna works very well.
the best cars i heard at finals all had speakers up high and the most important thing that makes speakers up high work is a front mounted woofer. it alows you a far more flexible crossover selection as compared to rear. there are people with front mounted woofer that cross them over as high as 200-250 hz. try that with rear mounted woofers,.......uh aint gonna works very well.
08-15-2005, 09:06 PM
#7
Thanks for the advice. After some more deliberation I have decided to mount the woofers near the top of the door. SQ might not be as good as the in-dash position but it means I don't have to mess with moving the air vents and doing other damage to the dash. Plus I have a hole that is almost big enough already in the door. I will have the two midbass drivers down low in the factory spot, the midrange 6.5's near the middle/top and the tweeters at the top of the door where I already installed them through the panel. If the imaging isn't quite right then I'll do some woodworking and angle them a bit more. THe Diamond audio tech figures I need more power to all of these speakers though which means more $$$!
PS - Kia Rio has a ton of room in the factory speaker location for a 6 inch driver in the door - sticking out 1 inch from the metal right now from stock with a baffle and no problems fitting under the panel [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
PS - Kia Rio has a ton of room in the factory speaker location for a 6 inch driver in the door - sticking out 1 inch from the metal right now from stock with a baffle and no problems fitting under the panel [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
08-16-2005, 02:29 PM
#9
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
Speakers that are mounted low in the kick Panels can create better imaging and soundtage for the listener...but there is a small catch...mounting them low and Facing towards you is important...but...the sound from the speaker must be able to travel up the along the bottom of the dash otherwise the sound gets cut off if they are mounted too deep behind the bottom of the dash.
The bottom of the dash acts as a guide for the sound to travel along, if it hit's behind the dash then you might have imaging and soundstage problems.
The bottom of the dash acts as a guide for the sound to travel along, if it hit's behind the dash then you might have imaging and soundstage problems.
08-16-2005, 04:02 PM
#10
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
the sound from the speaker must be able to travel up the along the bottom of the dash otherwise the sound gets cut off if they are mounted too deep behind the bottom of the dash.
I am pretty sure using the lower dash that way would NOT improve imaging but destroy it in most cases. A lower dash is far from symmetrical and all those reflections would smear the image and probably adversely affect timbre.
I kind of agreed with the other half of the post though [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img] basically having the drivers visible to the listener. The dash would still affect sound but its affect sould be minnimized
[ August 16, 2005, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]
