Let's start over...
03-31-2005, 07:45 AM
#1
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15
Thanks to all who have contributed to the discussion; it pointed out one thing clearly:
I made the same mistake that I always make... start a solution without understanding the problem.
Rather then Apline vs Clarion vs..., let's start at the beginning; the budget.
Assuming the law of diminishing returns applies to car audio as it appears to with home audio; let's start with the diminishing returns curve.
If the ultimate system costs $10,000's of dollars, at what price point can I get 90 - 95% of the SQ for 10% of the cost.
I spent 3 years in every store from Montreal to London auditioning home system configurations. The "ultimate" was a Wilson Audio Krell pure Class A system which I couldn't afford the monthly electricity bill and cooling let alone the hardware. However I think I ended up getting a system which was 90% as good at 10% of the price.
Does this logic apply to car audio and if so, what is that "magic" 10% price point. I though it was around $1,500 but it sounds like that may be too low for a great sounding HU, 4 x 6.5" speakers and an amp.
If I had 3 more years I sure I could figure it out myself, however with 2 small children research time is more limited
.
Thanks again.
I made the same mistake that I always make... start a solution without understanding the problem.
Rather then Apline vs Clarion vs..., let's start at the beginning; the budget.
Assuming the law of diminishing returns applies to car audio as it appears to with home audio; let's start with the diminishing returns curve.
If the ultimate system costs $10,000's of dollars, at what price point can I get 90 - 95% of the SQ for 10% of the cost.
I spent 3 years in every store from Montreal to London auditioning home system configurations. The "ultimate" was a Wilson Audio Krell pure Class A system which I couldn't afford the monthly electricity bill and cooling let alone the hardware. However I think I ended up getting a system which was 90% as good at 10% of the price.
Does this logic apply to car audio and if so, what is that "magic" 10% price point. I though it was around $1,500 but it sounds like that may be too low for a great sounding HU, 4 x 6.5" speakers and an amp.
If I had 3 more years I sure I could figure it out myself, however with 2 small children research time is more limited
.Thanks again.
03-31-2005, 08:18 AM
#4
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Join Date: Mar 2005
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If there is one answer' I'll take that , however since that's probably not the case I'll take suggestions(what sound great for one sounds awful to another).
My first criteria is the pain test. For some reason at moderate - high listening levels some systems cause intense pain. I can go to a concert at very high volumes and not experience pain. However many car audio systems (my Bose included) inflict severe pain at higher volumes. Not sure if my ears are more sensitive to certain (3rd order) distortions or what.
My sampling collection which I used for home auditions starts with Jesse Cook (I've seen him live a few times so I have an idea what it is supposed to sound like), Vertigo hidden track and a couple of others, moves to Holly Cole, Patricia Barber, Ian Livingston etc. I've tried to cover the audio gamut with these CD's. For DTS audio capable systems Freddie Revel is tough to beat (better the Eagles Hell Freezes over and others).
One of the best sounding CD's was an album recorded on Adelaide St. in Toronto at 2am with a PCM and 4 high quality mics.
, however since that's probably not the case I'll take suggestions(what sound great for one sounds awful to another).My first criteria is the pain test. For some reason at moderate - high listening levels some systems cause intense pain. I can go to a concert at very high volumes and not experience pain. However many car audio systems (my Bose included) inflict severe pain at higher volumes. Not sure if my ears are more sensitive to certain (3rd order) distortions or what.
My sampling collection which I used for home auditions starts with Jesse Cook (I've seen him live a few times so I have an idea what it is supposed to sound like), Vertigo hidden track and a couple of others, moves to Holly Cole, Patricia Barber, Ian Livingston etc. I've tried to cover the audio gamut with these CD's. For DTS audio capable systems Freddie Revel is tough to beat (better the Eagles Hell Freezes over and others).
One of the best sounding CD's was an album recorded on Adelaide St. in Toronto at 2am with a PCM and 4 high quality mics.
03-31-2005, 08:32 AM
#5
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 870
I'd have to say that the "ultimate system costs more like $100k. The systems I've done for 10k are by no means the best I've heard.
But you're on the right track, and asking the right questions.
The pain is usually from excessive upper mids, and the distortion inherent in most coax speakers.
This is usually because the cap on the tweeters does not provide a steep enough slope to adaquately filter out the resonent peak of the tweeter, and the natural roll-off of the woofer does not filter the distotion there either.
A good crossover (12dB/oct or better), or active is the first step to a smoother (warmer) sound.
If you have the time and cash, installing a decent set of coaxes in the door, will give you a reference point, so you can compare on the varios display boards, and know what the "car" sounds like.
Then , you'll be able to upgrade from there, and properly choose the drivers that will suit your ultimate needs. They're your ears, and only you can hear through em.
But you're on the right track, and asking the right questions.
The pain is usually from excessive upper mids, and the distortion inherent in most coax speakers.
This is usually because the cap on the tweeters does not provide a steep enough slope to adaquately filter out the resonent peak of the tweeter, and the natural roll-off of the woofer does not filter the distotion there either.
A good crossover (12dB/oct or better), or active is the first step to a smoother (warmer) sound.
If you have the time and cash, installing a decent set of coaxes in the door, will give you a reference point, so you can compare on the varios display boards, and know what the "car" sounds like.
Then , you'll be able to upgrade from there, and properly choose the drivers that will suit your ultimate needs. They're your ears, and only you can hear through em.
03-31-2005, 11:32 AM
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
One thing that I have learned over the years, is that it's not the design of a product, but the application of that design.
Some of the best sounding home speakers I have ever heard had no crossovers at all, they used mass on the woofer and inherent capacitance on the ribbon tweeter to take care of that. I just received a set of Dynaudio components, and they use a 6dB filter on one side.
The same rule of thumb applies to speaker design. I have heard both two and three-way systems that sounded both good and bad, it's all in the application.
This then relates back to the installation AND the pieces you use. When I was at the CES this past January, I spent some time in the Focal demo car - an Infinity FX45 - complete with Audison VRX and Thesis amps and a three-way utopia e component set up front. Sadly, I was not impressed with the sound of the vehicle in any way. The install looked fine in terms of placement, as I have heard similarly placed speakers perform stunningly in the past - the issue, in my opinion - they used the stock head unit in the truck. So, yes, product completely matters.
Blairs question is = what do I have to spend to get good stuff?
The answer depends on how well you can pick out the 'gem' produts. If you an score a basic deck with 24-bit D/As (for example) and forego some fancy graphics etc, then you'll save money. If you can get a good deal on a year old model of amp or speaker, then you get a good deal.
In my head, if I was putting a system together for a friend, the breakdown would go something like this:
Head unit - $500-$650
front speakers - $600-700
Subwoofer - $450-550
Amplifier(s) - $500-$600 each
wiring - $300 (very important to feed the system!)
Install - $1000-$1500
At these price points, no product should prove to be a weak link in the system design, and it will come down to installation and tuning to turn out the best results.
Some of the best sounding home speakers I have ever heard had no crossovers at all, they used mass on the woofer and inherent capacitance on the ribbon tweeter to take care of that. I just received a set of Dynaudio components, and they use a 6dB filter on one side.
The same rule of thumb applies to speaker design. I have heard both two and three-way systems that sounded both good and bad, it's all in the application.
This then relates back to the installation AND the pieces you use. When I was at the CES this past January, I spent some time in the Focal demo car - an Infinity FX45 - complete with Audison VRX and Thesis amps and a three-way utopia e component set up front. Sadly, I was not impressed with the sound of the vehicle in any way. The install looked fine in terms of placement, as I have heard similarly placed speakers perform stunningly in the past - the issue, in my opinion - they used the stock head unit in the truck. So, yes, product completely matters.
Blairs question is = what do I have to spend to get good stuff?
The answer depends on how well you can pick out the 'gem' produts. If you an score a basic deck with 24-bit D/As (for example) and forego some fancy graphics etc, then you'll save money. If you can get a good deal on a year old model of amp or speaker, then you get a good deal.
In my head, if I was putting a system together for a friend, the breakdown would go something like this:
Head unit - $500-$650
front speakers - $600-700
Subwoofer - $450-550
Amplifier(s) - $500-$600 each
wiring - $300 (very important to feed the system!)
Install - $1000-$1500
At these price points, no product should prove to be a weak link in the system design, and it will come down to installation and tuning to turn out the best results.
03-31-2005, 12:23 PM
#7
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 15
As a starting point, those Image Dynamic Chameleon CXS62 look great on paper. No retailers in Ottawa however. If I'm going to take a road trip to Toronto or Montreal, what else should I line up in the same price range/quality? I think the DLS may be a little too laid back based on a conversation I had with the distributor.
03-31-2005, 12:26 PM
#8
Cheddar
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 558
One of the best sounding car audio systems I have heard in the two or three events I've judged at many moons ago, was a low budget simple system in a POS Pinto (nothing against Pintos, but this one was literally falling apart). Young nerdy looking guy. One look and you knew he had no money whatsoever. But, man, was his system awesome sounding. 15 inch Cerwin Vega subs, no name mids and tweets. I think he said they were raw home speakers he got from pawn shop or some speaker place on 4th avenue (not Speaker City). Everything was passively crossed over (home made, of course). It was at an IASCA event and the guy didn't place because his install was not up to par and a few other things. People were chuckling at the sight of the car. I was pretty busy at the time and couldn't spend time to talk to the youngster. I kept telling others to sit in the Pinto and hear what a real system sounds like. I think people were afraid of catching the cooties sitting in his car or something. He obviously showed up to prove a point. I thought I'd bring this up, because I still think creativity and system design is still numero uno. Defro said it best. Give me $99.00 speakers and a whole lot of time and I can make 'em sound sweet. Not saying that 100k isn't gonna do it, either.
03-31-2005, 12:41 PM
#9
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That goes back to my comment about a good cabinet maker, some high quality drivers and the NRC Anechoic chamber. The cheapest (and good)Stereophile Class A speakers I listened to was exactly that... Waveform Mach 17:
http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/waveform/
I'd probably be using those today if the owner hadn't decided to increase their price by 30% after I had driver 3 hours to see them.
Car audio is a lot tougher I do agree... a car is no where near an anechoic chamber.
http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/waveform/
I'd probably be using those today if the owner hadn't decided to increase their price by 30% after I had driver 3 hours to see them.
Car audio is a lot tougher I do agree... a car is no where near an anechoic chamber.
03-31-2005, 02:13 PM
#10
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 870
I'd agree with you Dave on those prices...If I had to scrimp, I'd look at cutting back to a single 4ch amp, and then cut down to a basic deck, maybe around $250, add the Ipod etc.
A big deck purchase up front pretty much means you're stuck with it, while a cheaper deck is a bit more "disposable" and would allow a bit of time, both for the system to wear in, and the ears to get accustomed to what's missing. I know I for one, allow my customers to trade up within a reasonable time frame, and it's not too hard to peddle a gently used low end deck.
Most would shy away from spending on a used high end deck with now warranty, so it's be tougher to recoup if a different deck is later wanted.
Blair: Have a listen to what's availabe in town there. Try Stereo Plus in Kanata ( ask for Roger, and tell him who sent ya. Eric at Langlois has a bit of competition experience as well. There was a guy in Orleans getting going when I was leaving town....forget the name.
Then give us your comments, and maybe we can give you some feedback relative to what's there. Might help narrow down where you'll ultimately be goin for a drive.
A big deck purchase up front pretty much means you're stuck with it, while a cheaper deck is a bit more "disposable" and would allow a bit of time, both for the system to wear in, and the ears to get accustomed to what's missing. I know I for one, allow my customers to trade up within a reasonable time frame, and it's not too hard to peddle a gently used low end deck.
Most would shy away from spending on a used high end deck with now warranty, so it's be tougher to recoup if a different deck is later wanted.
Blair: Have a listen to what's availabe in town there. Try Stereo Plus in Kanata ( ask for Roger, and tell him who sent ya. Eric at Langlois has a bit of competition experience as well. There was a guy in Orleans getting going when I was leaving town....forget the name.
Then give us your comments, and maybe we can give you some feedback relative to what's there. Might help narrow down where you'll ultimately be goin for a drive.
