I just got reading thru the whole IMAGING post and I must say the WHOLE post is funny as hell...........try tunning a car for SQ.....it's a education in it self.......you'll learn things like how adjusting 1K on a EQ can lift your stage from the floor to the roof.....or how 2-4k can place your sound stage by your headlights or up your ass........or adjusting the lower frequencies can make it impossible to determine where your bass is coming from, only that it turns you on cause your system has finally made it.......from the sound of that post several people need to learn about SOUND before you even bother to learn about imaging.......

Knowing how to preach from a book and applying it into a car are 2 totally different things.....

I encourage people to debate about this, but if this turns into a bash-fest again, it will follow suit with the other one.

wow...i think thats the most information ive gained out of these 2 posts...kinda sad really, with all the information rolling around here...

LOL Tim, you are writing like Richard Clark does on carsound ;) So basically what you are saying is that an EQ is basically the most essential tool in the entire system?

And your reading meaning into what I said just like Car Sound, where the hell did I say that ? The EQ is the last thing you should be adjusting. I was giving examples......nothing more.....

This topic should be brought back and discussed more. This time with no bickering, insults or other crap I and other's were guilty of which I apologize for.

I pretty much have the theory on How imaging and sound staging works and a small bit of practicle with it as well.

I've found that once you know the theory behind it. It makes things a little easier to apply then pure trial and error via your ears. Once your in a car though alot of the theory doesn't apply so well due to reflections, absorptions frequency peaks and many other countless factors.

Any all technical and practicle information is welcomed. Specially if it's written in a matter that most people can easily grasp.

Cheers
Mohawk

i think we should all just pitch in and pay tim for a seminar...(im not joking either) [img]graemlins/@bow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/@bow.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/@bow.gif[/img]

And your reading meaning into what I said just like Car Sound, where the hell did I say that ? The EQ is the last thing you should be adjusting. I was giving examples......nothing more..... </font>[/QUOTE]Whoa, relax Rich..uh Tim :D It was just the way you wrote it, by separating comments with "....." That's all I meant. Perhaps what I should have said was the eq was the most essential 'tuning' instrument. That's what I got from your post anyway, well, that and properly tuning the car means you have to know what to listen for first. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

And your reading meaning into what I said just like Car Sound, where the hell did I say that ? The EQ is the last thing you should be adjusting. I was giving examples......nothing more..... </font>[/QUOTE]Whoa, relax Rich..uh Tim :D It was just the way you wrote it, by separating comments with "....." That's all I meant. Perhaps what I should have said was the eq was the most essential 'tuning' instrument. That's what I got from your post anyway, well, that and properly tuning the car means you have to know what to listen for first. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the EQ is the second most essential tuning instrument, the vehicle is the first one.

Here is how I tuned my truck from the time it was built to the time it went to a show.

Design the interior with the least relflective surfaces (some of those you want though if they work to your advantage)

Eliminate all vibrations and rattles (it will help to eliminate bass localization)

Design your kick panels or speaker locations to have the least pathlength difference from each speaker to each person (this can also be "helped" by changing seat locations, in, back whatever)

Eliminate and blockage of pathlengths possible (rebuild console, over hanging dashs)

The once you get the speakers you want ones that offer a great off axis responce (home speakers don't offer this well) so that they are not directional

You want a tweeter that has a good effiency so that they will not "fall short" and be lost in the midrange

You will want to play with phasing of each speaker and each side to get the best results

You will want to play with cross over points and level adjustments

Then once all this is done you can attack it with a EQ

Most good components will have well designed cross overs with them in which case you will not need to adjust much about 800 hz

In my Toyota Truck when I won the Expert class my EQ (28 band) had 4 adjustments above 800 hz

1000 +1
4000 -2
8000 +1
16000 +1

That was it, the EQ should be the last thing you tune with.

Remember most of those steps I layed out are hard to do in daily driver cars, but they all play a part in tuning a car if your going all out to win.

This is what works for me and has for years, use it, abuse it, learn from it, mock it.....I really dont care ;)

[ May 27, 2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Tim Baillie ]

Couldn't agree with you more Tim, the EQ should be the very last resort to fix any problems in the sound spectrum. I have seen too many high end systems, with high end gear get spanked by low dollar budged installs, it just isn't funny. Too many people place such an emphasis on the gear they purchase, when in reality, the biggest factor is the installer, and what he does with the vehicle. It's all trial and error, you simply can't spend a small fortune on the best gear and expect to win, experience is a virtue, along with knowledge, and patience... [img]smile.gif[/img]