Just got an e-mail back from them and they indicated that Audiothunder will be exclusively an SPL show this year with no SQ. They may consider adding SQ the following year...

This really bites!

booooooooo

SOUNDS GOOD TO ME!!!!!!

Lee B :D :D

[ November 26, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Migraine ]

WTF?!?!?!? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: THATS F'N BUNK. :mad:

I agree, that sucks :mad: ...

It sounds to me that there is a lack of vision on someone's part when it comes to Audiothunder. You can't truly call it a car audio event anymore, simply an SPL event.

Even though I am an SPL competitor, taking SQ out of one of the major shows in this country IMO is a sad thing. But, the pen is mightier than the sword; I say we should all write or email Larry at Pro-Sho (the promoter of the event) and let him know how we feel about this decision. Who knows, it might make a difference.

Moe, the problem I think is a lack of support from IASCA. So the SQ part just got to old heave-hoe. Too bad, I always enjoyed judging that show............... and then off to HOOTERS on Sunday nite with the ole ladies club.

I agree... everyone should write them at Pro-Sho and tell them your thoughts on the absence of an SQ competition...

This is defiantely a blow to Canadian mobile audio!

although i'm not an sq competitor, I agree that this is definatly not a good thing.. it's too bad the competitor support wasn't there..

I agree with u also Moe. [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] and also with Tom about the hole HOOTERS thing, that is... [img]graemlins/beer.gif[/img]

[ November 26, 2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: 20 HZ AUDIO ]

Too bad indeed, this was the major foot print in canadian sound quality competiitons

looks like I will have to see everyone a little later in the season next year

wtf am I going to do now?

As for being a major blow, well yes and no. It wasn't like there was 60+ SQ cars showing up. The competitor support was rather limited to the same few people almost every year. Maybe it will be back again in 2005 if there's enough bitching/whining about the absence of SQ at this next show. But I don't know how that resolves the IASCA support issue.

When is Audio Thunder going to be?

If I can get some cash together I might see if I can make it down there this year.

Tom, can you clarify what you mean by the whole IASCA support issue ? Is there a situation with IASCA Worldwide that has precipitated this decision by the executive at Pro-Sho ?

Also, I have to agree with the Hooter's situation :D . I think we should hold our competitor's meetings there ! Well, maybe that's not such a good idea...

Received a note from one of the folks at Pro-Sho in discussing why they don't have SQ at this years show:

"Basically, the decision was made (and let me state for the record it was not an easy decision to make) to go without SQ for the 2004 Show because over the past several years SQ participation has been consistently dropping. Last year we only had 40 competitors. And to be honest, we have not been receiving the support from IASCA up here in Canada."

Take it as you will.

Write letters or e-mail!

here's the address: audiothunder@meteorshows.com

I think what prompted the decision was last year db drag would only give them a double point event with Iasca there.This year low and behold no Iasca and there is db drag with a triple point event at audio thunder.

Although I dont work for ProSho I'm extremely close with Larry, Brenda and the rest of the ProSho family. With that in mind though I am not speaking on their behalf and these are solely my opinions.

We had been discussing eleimanting SQ shortly after last years show. The official decision was made around months ago. AudioThunder has been the longest supporter of IASCA in Canada so this decision was not made hastily. Over the years it's been a struggle working with IASCA plus a huge decrease over the past 10 years of SQ competitors. I believe we had around 30 cars last year (correct me if I'm wrong Tom). Although 30 cars may seem like an ok turnight you have to consider that this is a Regional show so trophies must be bought for every class (many go to waste now to competitor support), we have to have hire judges, feed them and in some cases put them up in hotels for 2 nights...Overall there is a hefty investment. Reality is, is if there were enough competitiors who were interested and registered early instead of the very last minute or on site the SQ part would still be around. Support from IASCA has gotten better and I'm sure Paul will work hard to get it back up to speed.
On the other side SPL has been growing and the show has gone from being a 2x points to a Regional 3x pointer with Wayne Harris in attendance supporting the show. Over the past 10 years I only remember official IASCA personel being ther once and that most have been 6 or 7 years ago (no offence Marc B)
The folks at AudioThunder recently hosted a luncheon for all the car audio manufacturers to attend (exhibiting or not) so they could voice their concerns or express what ProSho could do to make the show better. Everyone was invited. It was a genuine attempt to make the show bigger and better for you the consumer and for us the exhibitors. On a personal note I was extremely disappointed that there were no major headunit manufacturers present, 1 may have had a reason as to why they couldnt be there that day but 2 would have been stretching it. In fact I know of 1 company in particular who refused to answer emails or telephone calls on whether or not they would even like to show up to our luncheon. Rates have dropped dramtically so I doubt cost is the issue. The timing for showing new gear couldnt be any better considering shows like Darknights are well into the summer. The show is more affordable to the consumer (no ridiculous parking fes or insane long lineups or even cops to snag you while you leave the show. Are these are the guys you all are supporting?
So while you have your pens in your hands and you're sending a letter to ProSho expressing your anger at the lack of a SQ competition take a moment to drop your favorite car audio brand (or head unit brand) and ask them if they will be there. Its true there were a few years that looked dismal, the last few years keep getting better. Kudos to the folks at Dragster, Fusion, Polk, Focal, Clarion & PG and more for being there last year. I'm not sure who's commited for this year but I can tell on behalf of JL AUDIO & KICKER, we'll be there for sure.
Its too bad that we all have to loose something before we truly realize what we had.

Last years show was IASCA and dBdrag and dB drag was a tripple pointer. I know for a fact if we had 50 cars that firmly comitted to the show there would still be SQ.

My understanding of the history of Audiothunder is that it began as a Gemsen show and grew from there... please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have been fortunate enough to attend Audiothunder over the last four years, two years of which I competed in dB Drag and when they had it, IdBL.

Two years ago Pro Sho dropped IdBL, and from my understanding it was because they wanted to have a triple point dB Drag and Wayne stated that if they were going to have a triple point event, there could not be any other SPL organization participating. I am only stating what I heard and I can't state this as fact, I am not attempting to flame anyone, I am just repeating what was told to me by a number of people. Even though I enjoy dB Drag Racing, my support lies with IASCA(like you haven't figured that out already - duhhhh!) and to say I was dissappointed when they dropped IdBL is an understatement. Now that they're dropping SQ, it's just another slap in the face to the IASCA competitor.

Yes, attendance fell over the last couple of years, but there are reasons for that. IASCA has gone through some serious changes in the last couple years and with that comes some growing pains, but it's not just IASCA member attendance at events that has gone down. Attendance at many other events has dropped as well, including dB Drag events and not just in Canada, but in the U.S. as well. I attended a dB Drag event in West Virginia where there were only 14 competitors total. There was an IdBL event there at the same time and it drew the same amount of competitors. Another reason may be the time of the year the show is held... the majority of SQ competitors' vehicles are still in winter storage.

It is also my understanding that Audiothunder began as an IASCA event only in it's inception. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong. It's not just the support of the competitors that should dictate whether a company hosts an event, but the support of the distributors, manufacturers and the show promoters themselves. Maybe Pro Sho should invite the competitors to the luncheon as well, to hear our side of the story before making any decisions.

I would gladly offer my services as an IASCA certified judge to maintain IASCA competition at Audiothunder. To see it go away is a sad day for all IASCA competitors.

Have you read IASCA's mission statement lately???

Given this above noted statement, it baffles me as to why they will not support one of the biggest, if not "the" biggest IASCA show in Canada. Given the format of the Car Audio portion of the show and also having the organizer trying to get manufacturers/distributors/etc out onto the floor at Audiothunder, you'd think IASCA would be tying in with this with their afterburners on hot as it matches in with their mission statement perfectly. I'm just not understanding IASCA's position here in Canada at all. Is there some sort of history I've missed out on regarding IASCA or is Canada just meaningless to IASCA's mission??? Maybe Edmundson has it right after all as to why he's dumped his support of IASCA and moved on to USAC ............from my understanding.


IASCA mission statement doesn't seem to apply in Canada nor does the mission statement provide any sort of commitment or value for competition/competitors. It's seems like it's all about something and somewhere else. And you know what I think about that................ call me some time and I'll tell you cause then I can deny I ever said what you'd hear coming form my lips :D

Dave, they sprung for two nites hotel accomodations for judges coming into town !?!!??!? Damn, why didn't anyone tell me about that. I would have gladly accepted an offer like that to shack up free of charge in a 5 star on the strip............ with room service too rite ?!?! :D

Moe,

Audiothunder has never been a Gem-Sen show. Mike O'Connor from our office has been actively involved from the very start back when he was at Kennedy Hi-Fi, then Canadian Audio & Radio and now Gem-Sen. I've been at Gem-Sen for over 10 years and we showed up as ordinary exhibitors just like everyone else did and we still do. My personal involvement(seperate from Gem-Sen and done on my own time) has been with the IASCA portion, rounding up judges and whatever else IASCA entails. I also do their webwork. My job has gotten been easier over the years with guys like Jamie Edmundson, & Tom Ehlers who've acted as head judges over the the past few years. I owe those guys alot of thanks because our presence has always been spearheaded by myself so with set-up teardown and the dealer training seminars that happen all weekend are very taxing by the end of the weekend.
In terms of idBl, ProSho did have both one year and the interest at the time was towards dBdrag. The goal of the show is to make it "The show to go to" and we decided to concentrate on dBdrag because it had the larger following. When the opportunity for making it a key event arose
ProSho jumped at the chance to make the show even bigger and accepted. Not being able to have 2 Key events from dBdrag and IASCA at the same show is correct. Whether it was IASCA's or dBdrag's rule it was I dont remember since it wasnt a discussion that I was involved in. I just know that it wasnt allowed.
I'm not knocking IASCA, Paul has some great ideas and goals. ProSho has been involved with them for a long long time and they've experienced all the growing pains, all the manpower changes and all the other fun stuff. This year it's time for a break. Reality is they want to host a sucessful show. If there is strong interest and enough co-operation then they'll have both.

My issue is that if you eliminate SQ from one of Canada's largest shows then what will draw competitors to future shows? How can Moe possibly attempt to draw folks up to Huntsville to compete at the BEST SQ SHOW IN CANADA if they don't see what its all about at Audiothunder at the beginning of the year? How can you gain interest? Off hand at least five competitors started off their interest in SQ competition by attending Audiothunder - myself included!!! Now, the only way to hear about SQ is to log on here, Carsound, read Sport Compact National or perhaps travel out to Moe who tirelessly supports the industry.

In order to generate revenue from a show you have to acheive a fine balance. You need to have a show format for people to compete in and you need to advertise the competition (this is up to the SHOW promoter not IASCA... you want people coming to see your show and spending money competing at your show, you need to spend the bucks to promote your show). If these things are done, you will definately have people attend. Not to bash Audiothunder, but the only advertising I have ever heard has been on 680news which isn't exactly directed at the market they are trying to bring to the show.. I don't see too many executives wanting to burp their bimmers in the SPL lanes (Sorry Tom).

On another note, how can you have a "car show" with SPL vehicles. SPL vehicles by their very nature are geared at function over cosmetics (except of course Moe's sexy Civic ;) ). People come to a show to see wild installs and cars they can't see every day. I'm sorry, but I'm not excited walking by a dirty cube van with a wall of woofers... I'd be a lot more thrilled walking by Marc Turner's Neon, Mark E's 4Runner, or Gary Bigg's Regal... just to name a few. By not having "show cars" - which SQ cars definately are, what are you doing to bring people to your show? Have a funky SPL meter up and a grand-stand?? It's a CAR SHOW, lets not forget that people are paying to see CARS!

Lastly, IASCA is definately not an innocent party. On the whole IASCA has very limited support for Canadian shows. The Canadian dollar is conducive to running MANY MANY IASCA shows at a fraction of the US cost... Can you imagine having a Steel Valley Regional in Ontario around mid-summer? You'd have people coming from all over... cheap entrance fees, cheap hotel fares, cheap food... cheap real beer! But no... only a few of the die hard Canadian supporters host a limited number of shows for a demographic that is SCREAMING for attention...

I fear that with the death of SQ at Audiothunder, you will see the death of SQ in Canada... and I fear the death of mobile audio apart from mobile video and affordable subwoofers.

By Audiothunder not hosting an SQ competition they are essentially turning their backs to this important demographic and saying that their vehicles aren't show worthy, competition worthy, and do not draw a crowd.

I for one feel that this is a slap in the face... [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

I've been attending Audio Thunder in one fashion or another since its inception. I've been a exhibitor, spectator, judge and photographer. Some of my most memorable car audio experiences happened while being involved with that event (both good and bad).

I am indeed sad to see that Audio Thunder will not be an IASCA event, as I do seem to see a rise in the number of competitor as of late, and our showing at the IASCA finals was indeed impressive. But, I am not surprised.

Perhaps something will surface next year in terms of an SQ competition. Personally, I'd like to write my own rules and create my own series, but with 30 or 40 people in attendance, that just doesn't seem like it would be worth the investment in time or money, especially since I am completely out of spare amounts of either these days.

What got you into car audio? Chances are, it wasn't reading about it on the internet, but by hearing, and seeing local competition, and regular street cars. How are we supposed to gain new interest in this industry, if all people ever see is dirty, gross looking spl vehicles! (sorry to any spl competitors.) Sure, spl is exciting, but imo, there is very little 'class' involved in it, ESPECIALLY compared to sq.

If IASCA won't support its canadian sound quality competitors, Why should manufacturers support their canadian competitors?

If sound quality is as dead as IASCA is implying it to be, I say stop manufacuting tweeters. Whats the point? They cant play below 80 hz anyways!

With support like this, i really do hope that this industry can support itself by replacing broken cd players in 45 year old mothers' minivans, because this is what the industry is coming to, and the reason that many people, friends of mine, and quite possibly even myself have been discouraged by, and left this industry. I just hope im not around to see, and be involved in, its demise.

Orion, no one is implying that SQ is dead, certainly not IASCA. This thread is focused on the fact that Audiothunder will not be hosting an SQ competition in 2004, which definitely does not help the SQ situation, specifically in Central and Southern Ontario, as well as the northeastern U.S. and the province of Quebec, but does not necessarily hurt it either.

To everyone, what we need on this thread is some constructive ways to get IASCA back into Audiothunder so we may all enjoy the benefits of a multi-organizational event that caters to all aspects of car audio competition. Hell, I'd like to see dB Drag, IASCA, USAC, MECA and SLAP ALL at Audiothunder... imagine the show then !!!

Needless to say, we'd need to have a show promoter who would be willing to make the initial investment in such an event. It would be a huge undertaking, but I truly believe it would be the most successful event in Canada.

But, baby steps first... my thought is we have to let Larry and the gang at Pro Sho know how important it is to bring SQ back, by either calling, emailing or mailing them with our thoughts and support of SQ. I may be wrong, but I think the folks at Pro Sho are simply looking at the dollar return on investment and without competitor support in SQ, there's no return. Once again, this could be because of the time of year the event is held, the fact that some SQ competitors just aren't thinking about competition when there's still 2 or 3 feet of snow on the ground or maybe their latest install just isn't finished yet... let's face it, this is the time of the year when most competitors are doing just that, rebuilding their system.

So let's try to focus on a positive spin in regards to this and be proactive in getting SQ back to Audiothunder.

Tom, I still don't understand what you mean by IASCA support of Audiothunder... I apologize, I'm just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from.

IASCA's mission statement is what it says "To promote the mobile electronics industry and to enhance the retailer's ability to consistently reach greater segments of the consumer marketplace." By giving the retailer a format in which to host events, clinics and using the IASCA rule book on the showroom floor, the retailer can attract more consumers, of which a percentage will become competitors, thus increasing the organization's membership and developing a new culture in which these competitors can compete. It's not only about the competitor, but the retailer, the manufacturers, the distributors, the show promoters and the organizations... we're ALL involved and we ALL have to have a certain level of commitment to help the industry grow. Because without the industry, there would be no product to sell, therefore there would be no retailers, no manufacturers, no organizations, no events, no consumers and no competitors. It is a TEAM effort.

Please email me on your thoughts. I can understand your frustration towards IASCA and you know I have a lot of respect for you, but I do believe your frustration is a bit misguided. Having talked at length with Paul Papadeas about the situation (you know which situation I'm referring to) made me understand that what happened was just a very BIG lack of communication and unfortunately, as much as Paul has tried to remedy the situation, has fallen on deaf ears. Please do not belittle IASCA or any other organization for that matter; not only does it hurt IASCA, but all the other orgs as well and their competitors.

Dave, thanks for clearing that up for me. There's nothing I hate more than being misinformed and that seems to be the situation here. Once again, if Pro Sho can see it's way clear to hosting another IASCA event, I would gladly offer my services as an IASCA certified judge at NO charge to see the rebirth of IASCA at Audiothunder. It would be a small price to pay to see IASCA SQ and IdBL competitors, competing at Audiothunder with smiles on their faces. If you could relay that to Larry for me would be greatly appreciated.

I for one have voiced my thoughts to everyone at Pro Sho numerous times in regards to this... I suggest that anyone who feels as strongly about this as I do should do the same.

[ November 29, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Moe Sab ]

One other point I'd like to make... there is not one organization that offers it's services for nothing.

Organizations like dB Drag, IASCA, USAC, MECA and SLAP are businesses, owned by individuals. Businesses are started for one purpose, to make money. If a business does not make money, they will soon be out of business.

I can tell you, from experience, it is not cheap to run an event, and believe me, Wayne Harris from dB Drag, Paul Papadeas from IASCA, Steve Stern from MECA and Ralph from USAC don't put major events on, like Audiothunder, for free. They are paid to be there and people like myself and Larry at Pro Sho foot the bill to have our organization of choice represented at our event. It is then passed down to the competitor who pays the entry fees to compete at this event to offset the cost of having this organization at the show. It comes down to what the public (or in our case,the competitor base) demands. So if the public asks for a dB Drag event, they get a dB Drag event, if they ask for an IASCA event, they get an IASCA event.

The organizations are not necessarily there out of the goodness of their respective hearts, they're there to make money, to survive financially.

This may sound cold, but it is the truth. On the other side of the coin, they appreciate the enthusiasm we as competitors have for their organizations and offer us incentives to compete in their organizations and we the competitors make the organizations grow with our support. These organizations began with an idea, a passion that is shared by all of us and certain people with a vision to see it evolve, stepped up and took a risk to see their vision come to life. People like Wayne Harris, Paul Papadeas, Steve Stern and Ralph from USAC (Sorry I've forgotten Ralph's last name). They have built the organizations that we belong to and compete in and want to ensure their survival. We have to respect that and support them the way they support us by taking their vision and making it a reality, but by the same token, they cannot continue to do so if they can't make any money at it.

I'm not saying that making money is a bad thing in their case, it's just the reality of the situation. I hope no one out there thinks that the organizations support the shows, it's the shows that support the organizations and they support the organization that the competitor wants to see at their show. So it's up to us to let the show promoter know which organization we want to see supported at their show. That's what will bring IASCA back to Audiothunder.

I apologize for venting, I just felt it had to be said. Thanks for reading...

I'm not going to sit here and say I know and understand it all with regards to IASCA. I'm just giving my perspective from what I see and hear.

Let's talk again specifically about Audiothunder and the bigger picture. I haven't heard of or seen any senior IASCA people that run the IASCA business actually show up to Canada's possibly largest SQ show to visually be here to support anything. We're talking possibly Canada's largest IASCA SQ show. And what sort of professionally organized and developed booth do they have at any shows in Canada to actively show they have a real presence here and are here to seriously support and make good on their mission statement towards the manufacturers/distributors/retailers? How many booths at the show have had someone officially from IASCA visit them and talk to them about IASCA and it's benefits.......... sell the value of IASCA??? I'd think that Audiothunder has one of the largest collection of retailer/distributor/manufactures on the floor for car audio anywhere in Canada at the same time. Where is IASCA and their mission statement actions on this issue??????? What is IASCA officially doing to promote IASCA to Canadian retailers?? Has IASCA done enough to maintain the efforts of those like Jamie Edmundson, Mark Bruno, etc or have they squandered away those valuable resources. I have a whole lot of questions but no answers.

This is not about belittling IASCA but to me it's about clarifying IASCA's position in Canada. It's talking about IASCA coming to Canada and showing some real value, especially to retailers. IASCA has to take some risk first and help develop Canada, otherwise it's never going to happen. And more importantly and the real telling statement is this..........if IASCA was serious about Canada, they'd know about Canada's biggest IASCA SQ show and be up here kicking butt trying to promote it.............. or should I say save it from oblivion. It seems they either no nothing about the biggest Canadian IASCA SQ show and retailer/ditributor/manufacturer display, or they know about it but Canada is of no importance at this time as resources have been allocated elsewhere. If that's misguided, I'd like to know more about it. I'm always open to being wrong and admitting to it.

Thoughts?????????

Any chance our complaining will be put to use and there will be iasca SQ?? I would have went next year. This is a blow to IASCA in canada. I think getting people into the whole SQ/Install portion is the way to go. I think everyone likes nice installs, I have seen alot like Tim Ballies "Scary Installs" page. This is a blow to the industry of SQ. :mad:

Moe,

I have the utmost respect for you so dont take what I say personally, I'm just being devils advocate.

I love SQ more than I'll ever love SPL so I to am disappointed. There is some confusion over hosting a show and hosting a sucessful show.
Let's say ProSho decided to bring back SQ only which would mean it was a double pointer max. Now what, where are the competitors? If you would like ProSho to commit to having a competition and make the financial investment then we should have competitors sign up now, it's only fair. Very little if anybody takes advantage of the pre-registration discounts, not only that, they wait until the very last possible minute. Some because of rebuilding others for whatever reasons. I dont know about you but I think that it's not much of a competition if someone takes a first home because he's the only one in his class. You could put a car with a factory system through and it'd bring home a trophy and he'd win some cash on top of that. Personally I dont see any value in a competition like that, it isnt a competition at all if you cant have at least 3 competitors battling it out for 1st 2nd 3rd in each class. Reality is that this is what its been coming to during the last few years and it's a joke.
I encourage all of you to express your feelings to ProSho. At the same time I think if you are asking them to sink the money into trophies, cash prizes, the venue judges, sanctioning, scoresheets, extra staff etc then its not unrerasonable to make a commitment (registering now) as a competitor doing your part to support the show you love so much.
Keep in mind that AudioThunder is not the sole show happening at the International Centre. ProSho rents over 7 halls for 3 days with Performance World as the main show and Sport Compact Challenge & AudioThunder being features of Performance World. The entire show is over 350,000 square feet so ProSho has their hands full. Someone mentioned that ProSho should do a better job advertising, well over 70,000 people passed through that show last year and I can assure that it wasn't because of word of mouth. You could pay for a modest home with their advertising budget. They do radio ads on a bunch of different stations, newspaper ads direct mailings to all past competitors and besides, the show has been going on for over 10 years and its Canada's biggest. Every serious competititor knows when it is so I doubt very much that trippling the budget would make much of a difference in terms of bringing in more competitors.

IASCA needs to be in stores/shops here in Canada and be involved. If IASCA becomes a part of the process and brings value to the customer, then I believe we're going to see an increase in competitors showing up to Audiothunder for starters. I don't think just making a process (rule books, clinics, formats, etc) available off an IASCA shelf in the USA is going to create any sort of new interest. And although I may be wrong on this, that's all I see happening so far.

It's unfortunate that the next Audiothunder will not have an SQ portion, but it doesn't really surprise me. I think the problem is at the roots of the industry where the sales are being made at the counter. IASCA is not at the counters in the Canadian market in any substantial way and not yet adding any value to a customer purchase. IASCA has to grow from the shops and stores first and sold to the customer almost like waranttee is. Make the customer believe they must have IASCA just like they need a waranttee on the goods they purchase. And show the customer how important the value of buying into IASCA is and how it will make their car audio experience so much better. Make them see and believe the value. BUT, but before that happens we must be certain what value IASCA is actually adding and most importantly I think IASCA must teach the Canadian industry the value of IASCA and show that they are here 110% to back up the Canadian industry and will actually be here when they are needed.

[ November 30, 2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: dawgsbreakfast ]

If they bring IASCA back, I'm with Moe... I'd be happy to Judge install for free... [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

Quote
Has IASCA done enough to maintain the efforts of those like Jamie Edmundson, Mark Bruno, etc or have they squandered away those valuable resources. I have a whole lot of questions but no answers.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, and I really didn't want to air this laundry on this forum, the situation with Jamie was unfortunately a serious lack of communication between both parties. The contact person for IASCA involved created a situation for Paul Papadeas that he personally has tried to resolve. Unfortunately, phone calls and emails that were made to resolve this situation went unanswered. It is very difficult to resolve an issue when only one party is working to resolve it.

Paul Papadeas has the utmost respect for Jamie and Mark and I know this first hand. Paul and I discussed the whole situation and I can assure you that he feels very badly about the whole thing and would like to talk to Jamie and straighten it out. As for Mark, this is the first time I have been made aware of any situation. If he has a problem with IASCA, I would recommend he calls Paul and voice his concerns.

In regards to IASCA needing to be in retail shops in Canada, you are absolutely right, and that's what they are working towards. It is not just on an IASCA shelf in the USA, it's in many retail shops in Canada as well, shops like mine, shops in Ottawa, Pembroke, Cambridge, Sudbury, North Bay, Guelph and many more, even in Western Canada. Now although I can't speak for the other shops that are IASCA retail members, I can say that it has helped my shop tremendously in regards to building a stronger customer base and generating new competitors, both SQ and SPL. Being an IASCA retail member and having the package does not guarantee that you will get new customers and new members, you have to use the package while talking to your customers and show them the advantages of being an IASCA member. As I mentioned earlier, it's a team effort and we all have to do our part.

IASCA recognizes the importance of Canada and it's role with the organization. But you have to understand it takes time to get the word out and get the "ball" rolling. We're now going into the second year of this program and things are progressing well, but we can't expect success overnight, I'm sure you understand that.

I hope this helps clarify things for you Tom. You've been a first class judge and supporter of IASCA over the years, it would be a shame to see you move away from that. Once again, if you'd like to call me or email me personally, I'd be glad to fill you in with more detail. Thanks.

Dave, no worries, I won't take it personally... what you're saying is very true.

Lack of attendance in SQ at Audiothunder is what precipitated this decision. For Larry to go out and spend the money on trophies for a class that has only one competitor IS a serious waste of money and I don't blame him for what he's doing from a business point of view, I would do the same if I was in his shoes.

I like the idea of having the competitors pre-register now, for say next year (2005 show), that would give Pro Sho the budget to work with to make certain the SQ event was financially feasible. And you are correct, very few people, SQ or otherwise, take advantage of the pre-registration discounts. I think that's been the age old debate with show promoters, you invest your money and hope they will come out and support, but you won't know until the day of the show.

You know the folks at Pro Sho well enough, do you think that they would be willing to make an investment in mailing out questionnaires to all the past SQ competitors, to see if if they can build up enough competitor registrations to warrant having SQ back at Audiothunder for 2005 ? This approach would give them the input they would need to see if it would be financially feasible and would let the SQ competitors know that their commitment would be needed ahead of time to assure it happening.

Tom, I understand where you're coming from in regards to IASCA having a "booth" at events. Once again, Paul and I have discussed this and as it stands now there is nothing specific planned but we are working on something. In reality, there is really only one major event where IASCA has a booth and that is CES. He sets up a booth at the Finals, but most times he relies on his affiliates to set something up and does his best to support them. Canada is a grey area with IASCA because it falls within the boundaries of IASCA Worldwide and is considered part of IASCA USA. I have been working towards making Canada a seperate affiliate country, like IASCA Mexico, IASCA Colombia and IASCA Britain, but in order to see this come to life requires a financial investment. And believe me when I say Paul realizes the importance of IASCA's presence at Audiothunder, he is well aware of the impact this event has to the car audio industry in Canada.

As far as senior IASCA executive at events such as Audiothunder, this is not a situation where the show is being overlooked to allocate resources elsewhere because they don't feel Canada is not "important" enough, the resources are being used to promote IASCA through CES, to the retailers so when they return home they can the word to their customer base.

You pose the question, "What is IASCA officially doing to promote IASCA to Canadian retailers ?". They are doing exactly the same thing they are doing to promote IASCA to retailers in the U.S. and other countries, attempting to work with key people in each area to " the word" about the value of IASCA retail memberships to retailers and how it can benefit them on the showroom floor, working with manufacturers to promote car audio competitions and how it will assist in generating more sales and through retailers hosting clinics and events, ing the word to the consumer that car audio is fun and competitions are their playground.

The same can be said about all the other organizations, like dB Drag, MECA, USAC and SLAP, they're all working to promote the 12 volt industry. I don't believe any one organization is doing more or less than the other... they're all working hard to get consumers into our respective stores to buy product and go out and compete, because once again, when that happens we all win; consumers, retailers, distributors, manufacturers and organizations.

These are not only my thoughts, but my beliefs. You claimed that if your thoughts are misguided, you'd like to know more about it, so I'm giving you the answers I have. I'm not saying you're wrong, I think you just don't have all the answers to your questions and you don't have someone to answer them, so I'm trying my best to do so. I still don't believe this forum is the place to debate this, so once again, if you'd like me to call you, or if you'd like to call or email me personally I'd be more than happy to answer any other questions you may have.

After all, I'd love to see that Bimmer of yours up at one of my shows again (if you still have it !).

Well, I do love IASCA and when I built my truck, I built it to IASCA specs as I've tried to do with all my other personal cars that I've owned. I have rule books and CD's I thknk going back to the late 80's if my memory serves me right.........I think a lite blue coer was the first one I had. I believe IASCA rules for the most part when followed add value and are a great set if guidelines for car audio. And if I didn't support IASCA, I wouldn't waste my time and energy judging for them or telling people about what they are missing out on by not getting involved.

Moe, who are the key people IASCA is using to " the word" in Canada??

[ December 01, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: dawgsbreakfast ]

Hey Tom, in Paul's eyes that would be Mark Bruno, myself and James Chevrette out west.

To date we have signed up close to 20 dealers on the IASCA retail membership program and approximately 50 new competitor members . Albeit a "drop in the bucket" compared to how many dealers and competitors there are in Canada, I myself am working within the resources I have to get the word out and I feel it's a good start, considering it's really only my first year doing this.

For 2004, I will not be competing with the Civic as I plan to focus on building IASCA in Canada. If there are any dealers out there who wish to find out more :D , feel free to email or call myself, Mark Bruno or James (sorry for the shameless plug!)

[ December 02, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Moe Sab ]

I don't think it's a situation where IASCA does not care about Canada, although it would seem that way most of the time. My feeling just from what I've been reading about and hearing from people is that IASCA can get more support from the U.S. than Canada and so their main focus of advertising is going to be there. I believe, as ignorant on IASCA's part as this is, they believe that Moe and Mark Bruno and Jamie are doing a wonderful job advertising and they need not help out with any promotions for show. Well, IASCA is right and wrong(yes, at the same time). Moe and Mark and Jamie are doing an Awesome job with advertising I have a lot of respect for people like that, who take the time out of their already busy lives to advertise and promote shows. But it's not enough....I was at Audiothunder last year...I did not see a big U.S. name there for the SQ part of the show, or for SPL for that matter....where the hell is Mark Eldridge and Gary Biggs? Are they so busy that they can't find the time to come up to a canadian show? I do not mean to single out anybody, but you would think that a name like Steven Head or Steve Cornell would mean something to the Canadian public. Waynne Harris showed up for Audiothunder, do you know how I know? I saw it in the Toronto Sun. And was last year's Audiothunder not the biggest show yet? I mean public attendance wise? If the big names from the States would show up for Canadian shows we could advertise that, and then we'd get more attendance, is that not just common sense? I'm really not trying to take sides but I think we need to take time to stop bashing IASCA for a second and start trying to give the friggin US guys some encouragement to bring their cars to Canada for some shows, I mean for gods sake Canadians show up for the big shows in the U.S. and Canada doesn't have cooties, so what is the problem? I say we e-mail Eldridge and Head,Cornell and Biggs as well as IASCA and PRO-SHO....maybe they'd find the gumption to get up here for some shows, or write to them and tell them to write to IASCA.....if Eldridge writes to IASCA and says, hey, if you bring IASCA back to Audiothunder for some SQ competition I'll show up...I would imagine that would be a good start to getting it re-opened.
I do realize that there's much more to getting IASCA back than writing a letter but hell, it's a start.

Agreed 100%.
I'd much rather look at an install that was built with the kind of skill and creativeness that could only come from an SQ guy, than look at a beat-up van that looks like it was put together by 2 monkeys with a sawzall...and believe me there's installs that look like that....no offence to the SPL guys, I do know how much planning skill it takes to build an SPL car and you guys get to work with a lot more numbers than SQ guys do you poor SOBs, trying to calculate port volume and **** like that.

And I definatly don't want to see some dude wearing a sub-cone on his head, jumping up and down on his van or car like he's on some kind of acid trip just because he hit 150 but managed to blow 3 out of 4 of his subs...I don't find that appealing at all....it's more like an Ottawa vs Toronto hockey game than anything. I like the SQ part of the show....and here's why.... 1.it's not going to give me a migrane before I've even spent a half hour at the show.
2. I can actually listen to music in an SQ car instead of listening to the body panels rattle on my 1991 Chevy Astro as I stand outside and admire the stereo that I have created that I cannot enjoy because it will liquify my bowels if I sit in it.
3. I will not loose my voice trying to talk to the guy standing next to me while looking at an SQ car.

and finnally I like my ability to hear things instead of a constant ringing in my ears that never goes away.

[ December 03, 2003, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: slingshot2 ]

Quote
" My feeling just from what I've been reading about and hearing from people is that IASCA can get more support from the U.S. than Canada and so their main focus of advertising is going to be there."

Slingshot, I can tell you right from the horse's mouth that this is not the case. Having spoken with Paul Papadeas countless times on this very subject, he has told me that Canada is equally as important, if not more important, than many parts of this continent. Our support has helped him to achieve many things with IASCA and is crucial to the growth of the organization. However, he has to himself very thin in order to support all areas and we are but one "zone" that needs attention. Agreed, he himself was not at Audiothunder talking to the people at Pro Sho and the spectators and competitors about the virtues of IASCA, but nor was he at Steel Valley this year, or at any of the shows in western U.S., like San Diego, Phoenix or Portland. He is trying his best to accomodate everyone, but there's such a thing a ing yourself too thin.

Quote
"I believe, as ignorant on IASCA's part as this is, they believe that Moe and Mark Bruno and Jamie are doing a wonderful job advertising and they need not help out with any promotions for show."

Once again, I can tell you direct from Paul, he believes that we are doing a wonderful job, but he does not believe we don't need any help. I am in contact with Paul, almost on a daily basis, formulating strategies and proposals to promote IASCA on a higher level in Canada. His input is crucial to the success of IASCA in Canada and we are working on a lot of different things for next season. As Mark Bruno said in a thread on the carsound forum, "An empire cannot be built overnight, it takes time", and we have to be patient. It will take time for SQ to be back to where it was a few years ago, but it will be back. I agree that Audiothunder dropping SQ this year is a black eye for SQ competitors, but sometimes you have to take a step backwards in order to take two steps forward.

Quote
"I was at Audiothunder last year...I did not see a big U.S. name there for the SQ part of the show, or for SPL for that matter....where the hell is Mark Eldridge and Gary Biggs? Are they so busy that they can't find the time to come up to a canadian show?"

No, Mark Eldridge and Gary Biggs were not there, but Larry Chijner and Tyrone Chestnut were. They may not have the "celebrity" status that Mark and Gary do, but they are definitely staunch supporters of IASCA and SQ and carry as much weight. In SPL, there was Scott Harris and Kara Lucius for dB Drag (both of whom also compete in IdBL), and not to toot my own horn, but I was there sporting a rather large IdBL decal on my Civic.

Please don't take it the wrong way, I'm not trying to flame you for your comments. I just thought that it would be best to let everyone know some of the info that I have and make you all aware that at this point IASCA is doing as much as it can with what it has, to promote SQ and SPL competition in Canada. As the organization continues to grow, so will IASCA's support in Canada continue to grow. We just have to be patient and offer IASCA the support they need, which I feel that many of us, like yourself, are doing by voicing your ideas, thoughts and concerns on this and other forums.

I believe that the one thing we can all agree on, is that our passion for SQ and SPL competition is certainly not dead ! [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

No, I don't take offense to that at all Moe. I hadn't heard Paul's side of what's going on I understand what's going on now.

Yea it's sad, but I think your right...SQ will bounce back in time.

So, does this mean there's going to be more Huntsville shows Moe? [img]smile.gif[/img] That'd be sweet, I'd rather be up there than in Toronto anyway. The drive up to Huntsville is nice, although long, and I think the competitors get more of a chance to walk around and talk to the other competitors...it's also a lot more relaxed enviroment up there, Toronto is damn hectic. The only downfall is the lack of publicity in huntsville...you don't get thousands of people there like in Toronto, which is probably why your shows are much more relaxed.

Moe, do you think that this Audiothunder issue will affect your Huntsville shows? I mean, I know you put out a lot of money out of your own pocket for those shows and everything but I also know that the Finals Qualification cost you a lot more than you were planning as there were Trophies for all the classes and yet there were more trophies than competitors plus renting the grounds and everything else that comes with holding an event....is that going to affect the number of shows you will be putting on for 2004? I know last year there was quite a few.