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Chadxton 06-24-2003 12:08 PM

I can understand from that POV. It's not totally quality that's in question. Power amps are alright, it's the marketing and such that is of question. Well, they're doing something right because they sell a lot of product.

ThA NexT BiG ThinG 06-24-2003 12:29 PM

definitly! thats why i would like to have the cappacity to chop momo, swiss audio and audio bahn, 'cause the average young buyer out there likes the product and thinks its cool, so there gonna buy the stuff, rockfords kinda got that reputation now, and the audiobahn stuff has tons of cool accesories, and nice cosmetics. like the stuff LOOKS really cool!

PerryB 06-24-2003 01:01 PM


Originally posted by Chadxton:
I can understand from that POV. It's not totally quality that's in question. Power amps are alright, it's the marketing and such that is of question. Well, they're doing something right because they sell a lot of product.
Yes, RF sells alot of product, and from what the shop's RF numbers look like over the past couple of years, much more of it is being sold online. RF's talk of clamping down on internet sales seems to be just that....talk. The shop went with power amps to atleast try to differentiate some from Best Buy and unauthorized net retailers who were mostly carrying punch amps. It is just something that I think I would have to keep in mind if I was opening a shop.

Chadxton 06-24-2003 01:17 PM

Agreed, Power is where it's at.
As a comparison, I have Sony amps. Many people think of Sony as junk due to their Xplod line starting in 2000. What some don't realize, though is that there was the Mobile ES line that absolutely kicked a$$ for amps and HU's. I can testify to that. A 1 ohm mono stable amp that was made 6-8 years ago was surely not a common thing. And it was also not easily available to public markets until they discontinued that generation of amps.
btw I'm referring to the XM 260G and 2100G
I think markets are also changing to suit world wide sales and marketing. Higher end amps like these are ideal for use in making bombs in Middle Eastern countries.

Paul Niwranski 06-24-2003 04:40 PM

^ I have found the Xplod line of amps quite reliable actually [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

PerryB 06-24-2003 04:42 PM


Originally posted by Dukk:
^ I have found the Xplod line of amps quite reliable actually [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
The local shop has done some installs with those amps(customer supplied, not purchased from the shop), and they have not been impressed at all. People have different experiences with different equipment though.

Homeless Guy 06-24-2003 09:44 PM

Hey, Let me tell you something:

Originally posted by bing:
i would run a very small shop that catered to very few people, and would do prodominantly home audio but would also feature car audio.
... wouldnt really be a source of revenue.

it owuld just be the $hit to own the place.

That is a great way to be successful. Spend lots of time, use your money to buy inventory and then not let people in other then your best friends. That way people only expect to pay dealer cost. Way to go buddy! You don't have to be Best Buy. But if you don't want to make money for all your effort, run your store out of your car, just like I did. [img]graemlins/puke.gif[/img]

Keith 06-24-2003 09:52 PM

Audison or McIntosh for amps,
Focal Utopia for speakers and subwoofers,
Alpine F#1 system for head unit and processor,
Monster Cable for wiring,
Cascade Audio Engineering for sound dampening.

Hakujin 06-25-2003 01:08 AM

Pyramid
MEI
Boss

o.k., no really now, I would chose:

Alpine
Kicker
Boston Accoustics (They make amazing amps now y'know !)

And Scosche/EFX wiring

ShockingCanada 06-25-2003 04:35 AM

I would do

Clarion (for their HUs and low end product)
Kicker (for the middle of the road people)
MTX (because they offer a nice balaned product line including a rnage of price levels and also own streetwires so you could get interconnects from them too)

if I got to pick more I would also carry

MMATS (very loud and durable, an excellent brand to offer)
JL Audio (because it sells very well)
RF (because they carry almost everything for those people who want all of their equipment to be from one company)

Chadxton 06-25-2003 05:31 AM


Originally posted by Dukk:
^ I have found the Xplod line of amps quite reliable actually [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
It's a good thing not everyone thinks they're stable at low impedances anymore. If I had one, I wouldn't think it would just die or fry, woundn't make much sense. Besides, most of their subs and amps are cheap to replace.

TomK 06-25-2003 05:51 AM

Don't knock internet sales. A good company can do well and provide excellent customer service. Shops just hate them because as stated, they can't compete cost wise as their expenses are much greater. Funny part is the guys buying off the internet and then taking their gear to a shop to get it installed and passing out when they find out how much an installation costs.

One other thing I'd like to throw out there. Looks as if all the choices are mainstream well known gear and most of it being mid to higher end. It's amazing how much car audio is all about the LC factor and bragging about high end one is. Half the time the install is so sh!t that low end gear installed properly would kill it sound wise.

I may stand alone on this but if I can go to a shop, get decent advice to fit my needs and they can install a decent amplifier and some decent driver for a reasonable price and make it killer sounding, I'll be one happy camper. Then again for me, I'm not all about Alpine F1 and bragging rights. I just want good tunes that sound right and sh!t that doesn't break down. Mind you, I don't think that I'm considered the average car audio consumer as I'm an old man :D I've already done the "too many 15's" with a big amps - more is better" thing.......... and killed off my hearing temporarily. And also experienced the "Farg, it's broken again" syndrome too often with complex systems. When you get old-er, you don't have the time for that kinda crap anymore.

[ June 25, 2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: dawgsbreakfast ]

Logan Lundy 06-25-2003 07:43 AM


Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:

I may stand alone on this but if I can go to a shop, get decent advice to fit my needs and they can install a decent amplifier and some decent driver for a reasonable price and make it killer sounding, I'll be one happy camper.

I agree Tom, I'd alway opt to buy locally so I can go talk to the guys, get great advice.... but sometimes my wallet gives me no choice but to buy online.

Chadxton 06-25-2003 12:35 PM

What gets me beefing is that some brands absolutely boycott internet sales, not only that but also tell people that the warranty on self-installed product would be limited compared to getting it installed by an authorised dealer. Companies like Kicker, Diamond Audio, MB Quart and such do that. Internet sales can be worked around. But if you know how to install, why can't it be installed yourself instead of having to mess around paying someone to do it for you that can install it as good as you can?
I'm not talking about consumers who don't know what they're doing, I'm meaning the ones that do.

Paul Niwranski 06-25-2003 12:40 PM


Originally posted by Chadxton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dukk:
^ I have found the Xplod line of amps quite reliable actually [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

It's a good thing not everyone thinks they're stable at low impedances anymore. If I had one, I wouldn't think it would just die or fry, woundn't make much sense. Besides, most of their subs and amps are cheap to replace. </font>[/QUOTE]What do you consider 'low impedence'? The 3001XMD was rated to one ohm. This car: http://www./future_shop_1...ic_system1.htm ran 3 4 ohm woofers on each in parallel and Rob cranked the snot out of it all summer with zero problems.

I also did a Cherokee with 6 10s all parallel off a single 3001XMD and it never had any problems.

I'm not a huge Sony fan or anything but in my experience if you didn't do anything stupid to the amps they performed quite well and were very reliable. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] Was quite shocking to me cuz I used to consider the amps junk too..

Chadxton 06-25-2003 01:02 PM

Little kids like to use the bridgeable 2 channel amps that are not very good below 4 ohm mono. :D
I wasn't including the 3001XMD, that's not a bad piece. You have it wired at 1.33 ohm with 3 4 ohm subs, too. You didn't need to hear that from me, though, I just felt like teasing.

A Cherokee with 6 10's all paralleled? 8 ohm each, or 4?

[ June 25, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Chadxton ]

bing 06-25-2003 01:18 PM


Originally posted by Chadxton:
What gets me beefing is that some brands absolutely boycott internet sales, not only that but also tell people that the warranty on self-installed product would be limited compared to getting it installed by an authorised dealer. Companies like Kicker, Diamond Audio, MB Quart and such do that. Internet sales can be worked around. But if you know how to install, why can't it be installed yourself instead of having to mess around paying someone to do it for you that can install it as good as you can?
I'm not talking about consumers who don't know what they're doing, I'm meaning the ones that do.

but how do you sort through the claims made by people who do know what they are doing and those that do not?

send out car audio private investigators to talk to the guys friends, and sneak pics of their car at night?

it supports the authorized dealers by encouraging consumers to buy at the dealer at full retail price and having installed by reputable techs that the store and manufacturer instill a level of faith in.

it reduces the claims made resulting from improper installs etc.

whats more is that i have heard great things, for example, about eclipse.

i guy i work with had his eclipse deck (not sure which model but a nice one) stolen and eclipse gave him a new one just like that because he bought it from the dealer and paid upwards of $1000 with full warranty.

that makes me want to spend $1000 on an eclipse deck.

Chadxton 06-25-2003 01:43 PM

Yeah, that's true. I knew someone would come up with that argument. I figured taking pics of the install prior would give some proof. But even if you buy something online, generally if it's a reputable dealer, they would give you some sort of warranty usually no longer than a year, albeit not warranteed under the manufacturer. Some warranty is better than none at all.
Sure, I'd pay for the service if bought at a dealer, but I get too much DIY stuff to care for it anymore. [img]smile.gif[/img]

PerryB 06-25-2003 02:11 PM


Originally posted by Chadxton:
What gets me beefing is that some brands absolutely boycott internet sales, not only that but also tell people that the warranty on self-installed product would be limited compared to getting it installed by an authorised dealer. Companies like Kicker, Diamond Audio, MB Quart and such do that. Internet sales can be worked around. But if you know how to install, why can't it be installed yourself instead of having to mess around paying someone to do it for you that can install it as good as you can?
I'm not talking about consumers who don't know what they're doing, I'm meaning the ones that do.

but I think for every competent DIYer, there could be many more people who have zero clue are blowing up subs and amps and then bitching if it doesn't get covered under warranty. The local shop gets calls from people all the time who hooked stuff up themselves and fried equipment. Are these dealers/manufacturers supposed to give a test to DIYers to see how competent they are?
The local shop gets as close as you can to helping out good DIYers while safeguarding as much as you can against screwed up DIY installs.

The shop has signed off on installs(eclipse decks) if they inspect the wiring before the person hooks it up(gets them a 3 year warranty instead of 1 year), and the shop knows the wiring is ok. There are other shops that will do that. They will work with the competent DIYer that way, but they need to see the work before saying it is ok. People complain about companies who don't have authorized internet sales, but then, if they had authorized internet sales, many of those same people would complain that the price is too high(same price as an authorized local shop, for example).

I think many if not nearly all manufacturers will eventually have authorized online sales, but I think the warranties will be extended if installed(approved by??) an authorized dealer. It helps manufacturers on warranty repairs, and it gives an incentive to buy from shops(who put most of these companies on the map long before internet sales were a big deal). From the manufacturers' POV, Authorized prices should be the same online as they are in stores.

Chadxton 06-25-2003 03:51 PM

Yeah, as a rule I don't make a stink of things, and 9 of 10 products bought from the internet that I don't have a problem with. Less than half the time I can return the defective product if it's a nice guy who has extra stock and can spare an extra. The rest of the times it doesn't work out, I'm hooped because it's sold as is. I had to rant, and I had to let it out. [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

PerryB 06-25-2003 04:31 PM


Originally posted by bing:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chadxton:
What gets me beefing is that some brands absolutely boycott internet sales, not only that but also tell people that the warranty on self-installed product would be limited compared to getting it installed by an authorised dealer. Companies like Kicker, Diamond Audio, MB Quart and such do that. Internet sales can be worked around. But if you know how to install, why can't it be installed yourself instead of having to mess around paying someone to do it for you that can install it as good as you can?
I'm not talking about consumers who don't know what they're doing, I'm meaning the ones that do.

but how do you sort through the claims made by people who do know what they are doing and those that do not?

send out car audio private investigators to talk to the guys friends, and sneak pics of their car at night?

it supports the authorized dealers by encouraging consumers to buy at the dealer at full retail price and having installed by reputable techs that the store and manufacturer instill a level of faith in.

it reduces the claims made resulting from improper installs etc.

whats more is that i have heard great things, for example, about eclipse.

i guy i work with had his eclipse deck (not sure which model but a nice one) stolen and eclipse gave him a new one just like that because he bought it from the dealer and paid upwards of $1000 with full warranty.

that makes me want to spend $1000 on an eclipse deck.
</font>[/QUOTE]...and you don't always have to pay retail on stuff at authorized dealers. Right now, the local shop has a clearance on JL 12W3s(not V2s). They had some around and are clearing them out for US$149. I doubt that price could be beaten, even online(especially once an online company gets you on shipping). As for the Eclipse thing, they make excellent decks, and their theft warranty(only for 1 year though) is nice.

bing 06-25-2003 06:41 PM

i just sold that same 12W3 in a custom built to spec sealed enclosure for way less than that...

sorry. off topic.

so yeah anyways...

PerryB 06-25-2003 07:34 PM


Originally posted by bing:
i just sold that same 12W3 in a custom built to spec sealed enclosure for way less than that...

sorry. off topic.

so yeah anyways...

brand new 12W3?

Rye 06-26-2003 01:20 AM

Eclipse
JL
Rockford

TomK 06-26-2003 06:30 AM

Point of example, and no offense, but there have been quite a few questions/comments from DIY-ers that had me shaking my head in wonder. Some scarey questions put forth at times.

The other exciting point is actual installers that don't know what they are doing. Nothing worse then dropping money in a store/shop for an install, talking to a head installers who gives a great dog and pony show because he's been around the block a zillion times but then he hands off your car to the local high school rookie while he sits on his can providing less then zero supervision. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

drspd 06-26-2003 06:35 AM


Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:
The other exciting point is actual installers that don't know what they are doing. Nothing worse then dropping money in a store/shop for an install, talking to a head installers who gives a great dog and pony show because he's been around the block a zillion times but then he hands off your car to the local high school rookie while he sits on his can providing less then zero supervision. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
Where oh where have I seen this? :eek: ;) Isn't this how all shops work, LOL. It seems that at some places you have to be a VIP to get the head installer working on your car.

Paul Niwranski 06-26-2003 12:59 PM

^ A sad but true fact of life. [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]

Hell, they let me work on cars :eek:

[ June 26, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Dukk ]

pinhead 06-26-2003 04:05 PM


Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:
Point of example, and no offense, but there have been quite a few questions/comments from DIY-ers that had me shaking my head in wonder. Some scarey questions put forth at times.

The other exciting point is actual installers that don't know what they are doing. Nothing worse then dropping money in a store/shop for an install, talking to a head installers who gives a great dog and pony show because he's been around the block a zillion times but then he hands off your car to the local high school rookie while he sits on his can providing less then zero supervision. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

the reason they have one of the lower installers do it is because all the higher ones have retired
who qualifies you to judge what a shop does
you should do your homework and not just brush it all black
all people who work for a living start out at the bottom
did you start out midway or the top

bing 06-26-2003 09:22 PM


Originally posted by drspd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:
The other exciting point is actual installers that don't know what they are doing. Nothing worse then dropping money in a store/shop for an install, talking to a head installers who gives a great dog and pony show because he's been around the block a zillion times but then he hands off your car to the local high school rookie while he sits on his can providing less then zero supervision. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Where oh where have I seen this? :eek: ;) Isn't this how all shops work, LOL. It seems that at some places you have to be a VIP to get the head installer working on your car. </font>[/QUOTE]hey dr.

saw you in the new pasmag... you were looking sexy

errr. i mean your amps were looking sexy... yeah thats what i meant to say

TomK 06-27-2003 05:30 AM


the reason they have one of the lower installers do it is because all the higher ones have retired
Some of the higher ones are either too full of themselves to do the simple stuff or have quit to find a real job that actually pays money. I don't know of hardly any installers that can truly "retire" and still pay bills and put food on the table.


who qualifies you to judge what a shop does
you should do your homework and not just brush it all black
Who brushed it all black ?!?!?! What post are you reading!??! And trust me, I'm no expert, but I'm qualified to judge a POS install as I do it all the time for IASCA. Maybe you should do your homework before you open your pie-hole.


all people who work for a living start out at the bottom did you start out midway or the top
That's not the point. If you actually read the post before shooting your mouth off, you would have noticed the point about supervision. The point was a "lack" of supervision for rookies. I wouldn't want my car worked on by an unsupervised high school rookie. I've fixed enough of those car in past to know how scarey some people's skills are. Are you one of those people ?!?!?!?

ChrisB 06-27-2003 06:07 AM


Originally posted by bing:
but how do you sort through the claims made by people who do know what they are doing and those that do not?

lol.. its so true.. even on here i've seen alot of people talk talk and talk and run thier mouths about stuff, and find out later it was a total lie [img]smile.gif[/img] im not pointing fingers at anyone ;)

ThA NexT BiG ThinG 06-27-2003 04:41 PM

All I have to say is that Car Audio, is 80/20~
80% install and 20% equipment . A good installer can make any speaker or amp or head unit sound amazing. and thats a fact

pinhead 06-27-2003 06:52 PM


Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the reason they have one of the lower installers do it is because all the higher ones have retired
Some of the higher ones are either too full of themselves to do the simple stuff or have quit to find a real job that actually pays money. I don't know of hardly any installers that can truly "retire" and still pay bills and put food on the table.


who qualifies you to judge what a shop does
you should do your homework and not just brush it all black
Who brushed it all black ?!?!?! What post are you reading!??! And trust me, I'm no expert, but I'm qualified to judge a POS install as I do it all the time for IASCA. Maybe you should do your homework before you open your pie-hole.


all people who work for a living start out at the bottom did you start out midway or the top
That's not the point. If you actually read the post before shooting your mouth off, you would have noticed the point about supervision. The point was a "lack" of supervision for rookies. I wouldn't want my car worked on by an unsupervised high school rookie. I've fixed enough of those car in past to know how scarey some people's skills are. Are you one of those people ?!?!?!?
</font>[/QUOTE]the only part that i see is your making a generalized statement to how the industry runs
it may happen in some stores
i would say your making a demeaning statment towards installers
#1 if you our your buddies did your homework you would know who puts out good work and who dosn't
seasoned installers can do ****ty work just like what you call high school installer do
i have had what you call high school installers
some i trusted and some i got rid of
theres good and bad everywhere
your point is?

bing 06-27-2003 07:46 PM

pinhead, not flaming, but i hope you dont enter into any SQ comps in the near future.

if so, this arguement is not going to help your score with the Judges

hint hint

[ June 27, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: bing ]

Paul Niwranski 06-28-2003 12:06 AM

^ Are you insinuating that Tom would risk his reputation as a fair an knowledgable IASCA trained judge just to unjustly penalize someone who happens to share an opposing view to his?

That wasn't very nice. :(

db 06-28-2003 03:05 AM

alpine for head:best pre amp voltage
phoenix for amps:load em down you know!
old school crank subs:awsome spl im the right box of course.

PerryB 06-28-2003 06:03 AM


Originally posted by db:
alpine for head:best pre amp voltage
phoenix for amps:load em down you know!
old school crank subs:awsome spl im the right box of course.

If you want best pre out voltage, wouldn't Eclipse be a better choice? I wish the local shop would carry PG though. That would be a good line for them to check out I think.


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