Bill@wa

So the question remains, what is the best deal???
I have been in and out of the car audio industry for over 20 years, and just under 5 years as an independent retailer...So what kind of opinion do I have and who really cares what some washed up wanna be has to say...
Car audio has changed huge..most things are made in china, and what makes one product better than the other...Is it SPL??? Is it SQ??? truth is I consider myself an old timer, and SQ is important but it is totally subjectual...(to a point), the IPod generation has no idea what great sound is (Sorry but it is true)....I spent hours and hours and hours listening to turntables, and then was told that CD's were better sound (truth is they are not)...and now we have gone to IPods MP3's USBs (give me a break!). Over the years I have began to loath music, to much bass, and no acoustics...call me old school but louder bass does not mean better sound. So how does our generation 40+ teach the 20 somethings what good sound is if you can't even buy it anymore??? I guess this is why I like SPL, may the best score win...
Just my observation???

Hardwrkr

iTrader: (5)

Is this a rant or an actual question?

If it's a question; nothing sounds like vinyl. But vinyl in a car isn't practical anyways. So CD's do indeed sound a hell of a lot better than tapes and 8-tracks. Along comes mp3's which is a lot more convenient than toting along a pile of cd's, but here's something you may want to check out if you haven't, Apple Lossless is pretty darn close (if not equal) to cd quality sound. But then again most mainstream music is so darn compressed these days so you're not going to get the dynamics you were used to in your oldschool music. So how do you teach the 20-something crowd about true fidelity? Well in most cases they're not going to be interested in your oldschool music anyways so all you can dddo is make their current choice of music sound the best it can (and this is where Apple Lossless and quality audio products come in, not to mention a little of your oldschool experience).

Btw I've been in the audio scene for 20yrs as well. I don't work in the industry anymore as I've left for other interests but I still keep it as a hobby.

n0catchyname

The argument of good/real 'sound' is as subjective as the argument of good/real 'music'. We might as well talk about whether grey is a darker shade of white or a lighter shade of black.

It can't be argued whether music now is over-produced and over-compressed because there is no argument, it's a simple fact. You can't argue about which is the best genre, because everyone has their own taste in music and you can't force your tastes on someone else expecting them to just accept them and follow you.

So how do you teach someone what 'good' sound is? Unless they are willing to accept the fact that good sound will never be available from the popular music of today, you can't.

In car audio, where vinyl is a no-go, cd quality is the next best thing. You could break out some classic rock cd's (the non-remastered ones), or some orchestral/classical music, but if the person you are trying to show isn't interested in that type of music, they won't grasp how well they truely 'sound'.

Anyone who grew up in the cd/mp3 eras, who don't have a passion for music, don't know what 'good' music actually sounds like because they are used to the overproduced albums they have been subjected to all their lives. The era of recording perfection. Why do you think vinyls sound better? They are raw recording that weren't editted to perfection, it's the imperfections that make them sound great.

Now all that being said, I'm 28 so I may fall into the 20-something category depending on how you look at it. Truth be told, I'm a basshead so SQ isn't overly important to me as my own personal preference, yet I still know the difference because I care about music and knowing the difference. People who care about knowing the difference will listen and learn from those willing to teach or advise. Those who don't will wonder why you have Norah Jones in your library.

Denonite

iTrader: (1)

1st off vinyl can never render a truer representation of a recording compared to a digital copy if the same content is recorded properly to both. I know vinyl is an analog waveform of the recording, and that would make it the best...if we could extract the waveform perfectly from it. However, the physical contact alone between the stylus and the vinyl create enough distortion and noise to negate it's possibility of being true to the recording. Now, do many vinyl records sound better than their CD counterparts? Yes, but that's due to poor sound engineering of the CD. As far as great sound is concerned, if anyone is interested in it they will seek it out. Ipods don't have to store poorly ripped lossy files..it's just a storage medium and is capable of 100% bit to bit and mathematically lossless copies of your CDs...ergo, it's as good a digital medium as any possibly can be if used for that purpose. Why do most people have no care for extremely good sound quality? Mainly because, most people these days have no time for it and the sound quality is more than good enough to enjoy the music. Convenience with good quality wins everytime over great quality that's a pain in the ***! Is that good for the world or bad? I don't know...it just is what it is and the world is always changing..maybe we all need to take more time to smell the roses, or at least render some digital HD ones with some form of digital olfactory reproduction(I hear the Chinese are working on smell-o-vision as we type).

Bill@wa

This is a good discussion, I am kinda ranting, but I am kinda asking a question or more over concerned about the industry that I enjoy so much.
You see years ago if you were a car audio guy, you were a car audio guy...
and if you were a home audio guy, you were a home audio guy...
and if you were a computer guy, well you were a computer guy...
and so on and so on....
Now the industry has taken all the formats, blended them into these great little packages, and made it convenient for everyone...so if you are a true "audio file" guy, you don't really get the chance to buy true audio file stuff, especially for the car...
Don't get me wrong, I have heard so amazing car systems and had a Jeep that did amazing in SQ competitions, but it took $$$$ to make it sound that way, and with the need to have computers, cars, ipods, dvd's, blue-rays, etc. etc. those $$$$ are being to thin and as a result the sound suffers...and the industry suffers....so I guess I am more ranting than raving....

Bill@wa

1st off vinyl can never render a truer representation of a recording compared to a digital copy if the same content is recorded properly to both. I know vinyl is an analog waveform of the recording, and that would make it the best...if we could extract the waveform perfectly from it.

Hey Dave,
I do see what you are saying, but I guess the question needs to be posed to those that live for music, band members....what sounds better, a cymbol crash on anolog or digital??? I always hear this chhhhh...on digital recordings, cutting the resonance off too quickly, and does not give you the true effect of sitting in the studio and hearing it live. Analog gives you a "more true" crashhhhh that is more like the real sound...I don't know if I am the only one experiencing this and maybe I just need to "Get over it!"

Dilatory

iTrader: (1)

I'd say you need to get over it.

The digital age has not destroyed music. It's not the consumers fault that these production companies choose to compress the music to a point where it suffers. What are you going to do? Tell everyone to stop listening to music until they listen to a percentage, however large or small and gets what they want in regards to a few more kb/s? Have fun with that.

Here's where the hi-fi digital guys come in to play, if you do some research you'll find that audio formatting software and codec(s) that up-convert and restore audio files to original studio quality, within a fraction of a percent.

Now you can convert the codec back to something playable on your stereo, whether it be home or car and have that high bit rate that you're pining over, but where do you draw the line? Going to up-convert and then re-compress every song in your collection and every song you purchase or download? Have fun with that.

And as for CD's not sounding better than Vinyl, give me a break. Really now. While each one has it's benefits and downfalls all in all digital recordings are far superior all around. Go listen to "The Dance" by Fleetwood Mac on DvD some time and then listen to the original/comparable Vinyl recording.

A live digital performance blowing a vinyl studio performance out of the water. By miles. I guess it's subject to opinion but that's mine; Music has improved in the grand scheme of things and will continue to do so. Keep up with progress or sit back and complain about "the old days" - Your choice I suppose.

Denonite

iTrader: (1)

I'll agree there are certain times, with specific instruments or certain recordings when analog may sound better than digital, but along with the good comes all the bad...hiss, pop, clicks, warble, speed variations, scratch jumps, and probably the biggest...convenience. Overall, digital sounds better, and there's no argument for any of the other factors...even the cheapest cd player can sound great whereas you need a very good analog set up to get even close to cd quality. Personally, I find it easy and cheap to be an audiophile these days compared to 20 years ago.

Bill@wa

And here in lies the problem...20 years ago as a retailer, we would actually have a following of people that took care of there things...Vinyl records would cost as much as a CD and we made sure that they stayed clean as to not get the hiss, pops, etc etc....This vinyl debate has been going on for years. 20 years ago independent retailers ran things in the audio industry, now the big box stores run the industry with no end in sight, all in the name of savings...and some how this is supposed to relate to better sound??? So I guess I'll see you when I have to work at Wal-mart one day.....

Hardwrkr

iTrader: (5)

Well in regards to the vinyl debate, vinyl has actually made an enormous comeback over the past few years (enormous in terms of how popular it was before the upsurge).
Is it because of a desire for better sound or is it just "cool" and therefor just a passing trend? That's another debate (and there's good info on the recent vinyl upsurge in a "ongoing history of new music" episode).