It's happpening AGAIN!!!
08-14-2004, 07:39 AM
#11
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,770
Originally posted by JohnVroom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> same crap, new year
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> same crap, new year
seeing you could give us and unbiased report
08-16-2004, 04:06 AM
#12
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
I have taken the challenge and I have failed. I could tell the difference 6 of 10 times but the 4 mistakes I could not tell the difference ... they were just not audible. The test is not perfect but VERY good, RC has done a good job making it fair (earlier versions weren’t so good). Scientific test... no but it is as close as you are going to get in the real world.
The two demo amps, one was down 1.5 dB at 20K and the overall presentation was mellower because of it, but that only clues me in some of the time. Other clues were difficult. The overall sound of any two amps is similar… period. The devil is in the details. The test speakers were Tannoy (very crisp and clean, analytical IMO) and added to the challenge (I don’t know if they are neutral enough to differentiate the amps differences) and they seemed to be a good choice (I liked the speaker).
Bottom line, it was a difficult test and I pity the guy who bets RC. What does the test prove: 1 amps do not sound the same, 2 given that you cant always tell them apart certainly not 100%, 3 RC is a nice guy, 4 The test is as fair as it can be, 5 maybe the flat earthers have a point
I just did an amplifier swap in my car and the differences between wildly different amp designs was minimal tonally… but the subtle things (impact/ dynamics, bass control, congestion, depth) did pan out. I do think the RC test tends to minimize the differences (amps that measure differently should sound differently) but that as an issue with in the ABX testing methodology NOT in RC’s integrity as some have claimed. To me the test has proven the amp is one of the least flawed members of the audio chain for the accurate reproduction of sound. After much consideration amps do make a difference just not as much as I had thought. I make no excuses for not winning $10,000 US. It has taken me 6 months to think this through after the test and yes you can build a musically satisfying system with Sony, Pyramid etc. but the subtle differences may justify the price difference to those who can afford them. Also I am not sure I preferred the sound of the expensive amp in the test to the cheep amps sound. The bottom line is not that all amps sound the same but that the differences are difficult to hear.
Unbiased report... not possible
The two demo amps, one was down 1.5 dB at 20K and the overall presentation was mellower because of it, but that only clues me in some of the time. Other clues were difficult. The overall sound of any two amps is similar… period. The devil is in the details. The test speakers were Tannoy (very crisp and clean, analytical IMO) and added to the challenge (I don’t know if they are neutral enough to differentiate the amps differences) and they seemed to be a good choice (I liked the speaker).
Bottom line, it was a difficult test and I pity the guy who bets RC. What does the test prove: 1 amps do not sound the same, 2 given that you cant always tell them apart certainly not 100%, 3 RC is a nice guy, 4 The test is as fair as it can be, 5 maybe the flat earthers have a point
I just did an amplifier swap in my car and the differences between wildly different amp designs was minimal tonally… but the subtle things (impact/ dynamics, bass control, congestion, depth) did pan out. I do think the RC test tends to minimize the differences (amps that measure differently should sound differently) but that as an issue with in the ABX testing methodology NOT in RC’s integrity as some have claimed. To me the test has proven the amp is one of the least flawed members of the audio chain for the accurate reproduction of sound. After much consideration amps do make a difference just not as much as I had thought. I make no excuses for not winning $10,000 US. It has taken me 6 months to think this through after the test and yes you can build a musically satisfying system with Sony, Pyramid etc. but the subtle differences may justify the price difference to those who can afford them. Also I am not sure I preferred the sound of the expensive amp in the test to the cheep amps sound. The bottom line is not that all amps sound the same but that the differences are difficult to hear.
Unbiased report... not possible
08-16-2004, 04:44 AM
#13
6 out of 10 times huh?
Thats about as good as guessing.
It defenetly does not prove amps sound different [img]tongue.gif[/img]
It has even been proven in AB testing with 2 different amps that people "heard a difference" even when comparing an amp with itself(therefore there was no difference). Just the fact of thinking there is going to be a difference will make you bios and think you hear differences even though there are none.
Hearing is one very touchy subject.
[ August 16, 2004, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: AAAAAAA ]
Thats about as good as guessing.
It defenetly does not prove amps sound different [img]tongue.gif[/img]
It has even been proven in AB testing with 2 different amps that people "heard a difference" even when comparing an amp with itself(therefore there was no difference). Just the fact of thinking there is going to be a difference will make you bios and think you hear differences even though there are none.
Hearing is one very touchy subject.
[ August 16, 2004, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: AAAAAAA ]
08-16-2004, 07:03 AM
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
6 out of 10 times certainly doesnt sound conclusive to me, you said they sounded different but only to a 60% percent certainty, and i use that word loosely, is it possible that they didnt sound any different at all, or perhaps the differences were so minimal that it is beyond the hearing capabilities of human beings
08-16-2004, 12:37 PM
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
I remember when John took the challenge but I wanted him to tell the tale in his own time.
John - I like and agree most with this line:
The bottom line is not that all amps sound the same but that the differences are difficult to hear.
Sound 100% alike, no. Too hard to tell, almost always yes.
John - I like and agree most with this line:
The bottom line is not that all amps sound the same but that the differences are difficult to hear.
Sound 100% alike, no. Too hard to tell, almost always yes.
08-16-2004, 03:41 PM
#16
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
The amps in the challenge sounded different (very subtle to my 44 YO ears) and they measured differently, and it proved to me since there were differences and they did not vary over the testing period that the 1.5 db difference @20K was not significant... to me that is. I suspect a younger pair of ears might have done better on that issue, others have done better (never 10 of 10 and I suspect there never will be). So do all amps sound the same no, but is the difference worth the $$? I just this WE swapped out a Zapco C2K and a US Amps TU-600, the two amps are very tonally similar (with the TU-600 a little hotter in the HF) the main difference in that situation was detail and depth between the two. And in my car which I am very familiar with the Zapco showed off the TU-600 weaknesses and vice versa.
During the RC challenge I could perceive no difference in any of the usual listening parameters. I had no preconceived notion of how any of the equipment in the room should sound since I had never listened to any of it before. So I took the test ‘green’, but to be fair to the test I do not think I would have done any better if it was done in my car.
I am not sure I buy a lot of the statistical ‘you were guessing’ thing. I will state there were clear differences several times but not a statistically valid number of times. Music was playing and the ebb and flow changes … but folks have taken the test and have played the same passage over and over and failed as well. I have to say this sensory test isn’t like a color chart where you can identify red/green/yellow easily it is much more subtle.
People claim there is not a difference in sound between electronics due to this challenge… I think the correct answer is not a statistically valid difference during the ABX. I think there are genuine differences I run into this time and time again, why the differences cant be identified 100% of the time is my question.
BTW you have NEVER heard me claim to have ‘golden ears’ or to be an ‘audiophile’, I just like music and electronic gizmos. It is my contention that anyone can have a decent ear (if they don’t kill it with loud cars). But yeah we don’t hear the same…
For the record RC is a nice guy who cares a lot about the industry and has numerous designs and patents to support his life’s work. I am trying to give him the credit to stand up and say “the emperor has no clothes” even if I do disagree on a few points overall I agree with him a statistically significant amount of issues. BTW this test has probably been a consistent financial drain on RC since he has to set up different amps, wires, time, inconvenience and he needs to be acknowledged for that too.
AAAA brings out an interesting point the placebo effect….could that be a factor in ABX test as well as the amps sound different argument?
I am being careful not to give excuses because then I would be discounting the significance of the test. I would recommend the challenge (NOT the bet) to any and all who get the opportunity, you wont win… the question is why not? This sent me into a tailspin for 6 months since it challenged my core experiences (and beliefs on design)… I haven’t really figured it all out, and probably will not either.
[ August 16, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]
During the RC challenge I could perceive no difference in any of the usual listening parameters. I had no preconceived notion of how any of the equipment in the room should sound since I had never listened to any of it before. So I took the test ‘green’, but to be fair to the test I do not think I would have done any better if it was done in my car.
I am not sure I buy a lot of the statistical ‘you were guessing’ thing. I will state there were clear differences several times but not a statistically valid number of times. Music was playing and the ebb and flow changes … but folks have taken the test and have played the same passage over and over and failed as well. I have to say this sensory test isn’t like a color chart where you can identify red/green/yellow easily it is much more subtle.
People claim there is not a difference in sound between electronics due to this challenge… I think the correct answer is not a statistically valid difference during the ABX. I think there are genuine differences I run into this time and time again, why the differences cant be identified 100% of the time is my question.
BTW you have NEVER heard me claim to have ‘golden ears’ or to be an ‘audiophile’, I just like music and electronic gizmos. It is my contention that anyone can have a decent ear (if they don’t kill it with loud cars). But yeah we don’t hear the same…
For the record RC is a nice guy who cares a lot about the industry and has numerous designs and patents to support his life’s work. I am trying to give him the credit to stand up and say “the emperor has no clothes” even if I do disagree on a few points overall I agree with him a statistically significant amount of issues. BTW this test has probably been a consistent financial drain on RC since he has to set up different amps, wires, time, inconvenience and he needs to be acknowledged for that too.
AAAA brings out an interesting point the placebo effect….could that be a factor in ABX test as well as the amps sound different argument?
I am being careful not to give excuses because then I would be discounting the significance of the test. I would recommend the challenge (NOT the bet) to any and all who get the opportunity, you wont win… the question is why not? This sent me into a tailspin for 6 months since it challenged my core experiences (and beliefs on design)… I haven’t really figured it all out, and probably will not either.
[ August 16, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]
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