OKay, I may be preaching to the choir here, but the thread about Tim leaving because they couldn't afford to pay him anymore got me thinking. The problem with 12V is that shop owners/big box stores devalue installers. Free install on a deck is one way, that just tells the customer that our service isn't worth anything. I know everyone in the industry knows that the price is really taken out of the head unit, but the average customer doesn't see that. Also when was the last time install prices went up? When I started only about 8 years ago, a deck cost $50 to install, Amps about $90, Alarms and starters $150. What are the prices today, usually a few dollars less. Now ask yourself what automotive mechanic shop rates were 8 years ago, what are they now? Almost all installers that have been doing this for 3-4 years or more are simply not getting paid what they are worth, and the race to zero in equipment is not helping. What are your thoughts?

In 1992-94 I worked for AVU, we charged 150 for a basic alarm, $50 per option and nothing was thrown in for $150, not even starter kill......................I was busy every day doing alarms.............we had no problem getting the money for it............................

Even at boomers we charged $350 installed for a basic Viper, we included starter kill, doorlocks if it had it, hood pin and hooked up the factory trunk pin if it had it, and light flash..........

I agree for the most part... Install labour doesn't seem to follow typical inflation rates of other industries. Now I've only been installing for just over three years, but I remember when my grandpa got his first remote starter, and I think he paid clear of $500 for a basic unit. The prices of the modules have plummeted, but also I think it's safe to say that it's much easier to put a remote starter or alarm in a car now than it was 5+ years ago, with the exception of course of newer cars with immobilizers. Now obviously I can't speak from experience, but one of my co-workers has been in the industry for over 14 years, and he's told me horror stories of some of the crap he's had to install in the past. The products we're putting in nowadays are much more user-friendly than they used to be, with on-board relays and whatnot (except Viper... BOO). I may be completely missing the point here... If we're talking door rates, then yah, our shop labour rates are pocket change compared to some other figures I've heard.
I wish things were like that today... Nowadays they push the $149 installed remote starter rate like it's gospel. People come in all excited, and when I tell them that all the pretty buttons on the remote wont work for that price, or that their ignition keys have transponders, they get all bitter and blame us for being the "bad guys." I have maybe 1 out of 5 cars actually get that price... And it's still falsified because they don't include the $3 materials charge! And if you think people wont bitch about $3, you need to give your head a shake... With custom work it's a little different for me. Normally I don't mind getting paid a little less because I'm learning in the process with some things (eg fibreglass work), so it's all good. That, and I love doing it. The store doesn't seem to care if I blow their budget on shop supplies because the fancy boxes attract so much publicity. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyways, with regards to pay, I really have nothing for comparison. I've been with FS since I started in the industry, and I've been getting decent raises since I've started. I recently acquired my AEAT certificate, so now the government actually believes that I can install remote starters and alarms. I have yet to see what kind of change that will make in my pay, but I'm hoping it's significant... We'll see. Sometimes it's amazing what a piece of paper can get you... sometimes.

Ex-Maxx, do you know what the pay ranges for your position are? I was surprised to find out I made less than the median wage stated in our HR binder. Especially considereing I have beeen with FS for 4 years 6 months and my bay has been pretty profitable. I would be scared to ask Tim what he made as an hourly wage with FS.

I have never seen such a binder, and I have no idea what the pay ranges are... I myself make $10.75/hr right now, plus the 10% commissions, and that's after just over 3 years of faithful service. That's changing soon because of my AEAT certification and moving up to tech 3, but they haven't told me any numbers as of yet. I guess I'll find out if and when I get that magic paycheck. I *think* our senior tech is making well over $14/hr with his 10%, plus the extra 4% for that position. I'm not sure if and how things are changing with respect to installers... The install manager position is obviously eliminated, but outside of that I don't think I2 is changing much with respect to our guys. Then again, I don't really pay much attention to that kind of stuff, which I probably should... :/

[ December 07, 2004, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Ex-Maxx ]

Custom work should be custom prices, but for hooking up a amp or head unit what’s really changed in the last say 10 years? You have premade head unit wiring kits, you plug in the rca's and this is the toughie that most installers can not do right.. Find a proper ground. Now I'm not dissing anyone in this field but for all the thought it takes 90% of the time you maze well be doing factory work ;) . However if you wish to make more then it comes back to cravity, fiberglass, custom doors ect all should be at a premium, I guess it depends on your clientele.
Installers need one of 2 things a union or manufactures/dealers that support them. How much do you want to make? There has to be a cap on it somewhere your not saving lives or going to school for 7 years and there’s no risk involved like starting your own shop... Now there’s one way to make more money.
Installers have a skill unfortunaly you have helped others learn it by teaching everyone online how to's and showing step by steps.
Even a trade these days pay as little as 10 dollars an hour and they have 4 years of training before they are qualified at there job.
Before you guys fly off the handle, I fully support your need for more pay I just would like to see why you expect more pay, I'm not an installer and I don't know what qualifies you for this increase.

For someone who's not an installer you seem to know an awful lot about the amount of thought (or lack thereof) that supposedly goes into the job. I'm not gonna lie and say there aren't any ten-minute deck installs out there, but I think it's a little more involved than factory work. Now personally I'm not complaining about my pay; sure it'd be nice to have more, but I make enough to put food on the table and whatnot, and occasionally buy myself some toys. The sad thing is sometimes people don't appreciate the amount of work that has to go into some jobs... They say "oh yah, it'll only take five minutes. I've already got the factory HU halfway pulled out and you just gotta plug the new one in." 99.9% of the time I've seen the average joe customer try to grow a brain and attempt an install his/herself, they end up coming back to the shop and paying us a premium first to hack through the rat's nest they've created, and then install the radio. Definitely not factory work...

I know what you are saying John, every job is pretty much the same as it used to be, some even get easier. For example name me a mechanic at a dealership that can rebuild a fuel pump. None, they plug a computer in, it tells them what's wrong, and they swap parts. Yet their wages keep up with inflation. The only way to really make a difference in pay in installing is to get faster and be on commission. Which is great for some. I wish I were on commission, but then I wouldn't spend much time training new guys or any of the paperwork part. I mean I can trouble shoot a system in five minutes, usually something simple like subs out of phase, bad battery connection etc. When the customer finds out his mistake took me two minutes to fix he doesn't want to pay. They forget they are paying not just for time but knowledge. I am nipping that one in the bud by telling everyone every diagnoses will take about an hour and I will call them with a price when I know what is wrong. But when I tell them it's going to be $25-$50 to fix, they just go somewhere else, which to me right now is better than spending 15 minutes not getting paid. I guess I am just venting. How much would it cost to go to a cabinet maker and get him to make a typical square subbox, then take it to an upholstery shop and have them cover it? A hell of a lot more than $100.

all installers should be on 50% of the labour they do in my opinion, like ive stated before, if they think they are worth all this and that prove it, dont come in with ridiculous salary(should never even be and option with installers) desires and then try to fulfill them, prove your worth it. salespeople dont typically get salaries, they have to prove themselves, develop clientel, so why should installers. we charge for every minute that a car gets worked on, every minute. the best deal that anyone ever gets is 45/hour, that 22.50/ hour. like ive said before unless you duties include things other that installing, bay managers etc, if you want to make 5g's a month, you better do 10g's in labour. if you duties inc things other than installing than i think that its fair to have some sort of base salary + commission. ive tried many systems over the years and this is the only one ive ever had work, ive had the same installers for 4 years, i had to make a changes due to a illness and injury but no one has ever left. i charge for everything that we do, 45 for a deck, 65 for a amp, if you do more that one its 65 each, 100 for basic alarm(doors, shock, ign/starter kill, lites), 45 for locks, 35 for hood, 45 for trunk(if no aftermarket pin is needed), custome labour is 55/hour, unless there is an agreement between me and the installer. im keep it fair and never rip off the installer, they dont rip me off so i dont rip them off, and i never devalue the isntall by giving it away, shame on the stores that do

I am surprised that someone hasnt mention salesmenship? It has gone down drastically in 3 yrs.

I look at the problems we have in our industry and believe that if owner/managers would hire salesmen with pashion for car many problems would start to disappear.

What makes a salesperson push for that door lock charge or window roll-up option.

A)they are not trained on how to, or even what the custoem benifit is.

A big misconception is the customer wont want something or its Too MUCH!!.. Or he will just go down the street to the other shop.

If you seperate yourself as a shop offering new concepts or differant concepts than the average place the customer will see the value. We just need to show them why they need it.


On labour there is nothing to distinguish yourself other than custome service and Salesmenship.! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Any thoughts?

I always wonder why salesmen will try and never discount the price of the product, but in the same sentance they will try and give the labor away for free....................right Kyle...................

It's too bad that the big box stores do not know the true value of an employee and their ability to sell things. I held one of the records at a big box store for years (probably still do for tha matter) for top sales, the installer was on a 50/50 split and he worked alone. He was so busy that I lost sales because the shop would not hire an additional installer and the single installer did not want to lose any money (greed factor). The big box retailer is the one primary factor that may drive the industry but they are also the primary factor in it's devalueing of a product.

This industry in Canada is not growing at all, it is receding. More business is not being done, it is being stolen from one company and given to another. It all starts with the advertising and who has the lowest price. Who do you think started the free installation in Canada as a way to steal business from their competitors?, the small indipendent or the big box who could advertise it heavily. A cd player that may cost $125.00 being sold for $179.00 installed - is this really smart or is it a way to steal business. How much money is actually made on this. Does the commission guy even want to sell it or the install want a 50/50 split of a devalued install - I think not, yet every month the free install and free 6.5" speakers are blatently thrown out in advertising to steal business away from their competitors. The more business they steal away, the more they hurt their competitor as they plot their demise.

doing that in my store is the best way to end up unemplyed

I know in BC it was an independant....


As far as installers go - I was horribly underpaid when I was at a small independant but I know that most of the senior installers I know now make at least what I do in my "professional job". [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

I know in BC it was an independant....


As far as installers go - I was horribly underpaid when I was at a small independant but I know that most of the senior installers I know now make at least what I do in my "professional job". [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]:D

What about creating some excitement for the industry? If you only want to put 5 1/4 speakers in Hondas all day. Then a big box retailer is for you. I see over 300+ retailers a year, how come the shops doing custom labour are booked months in advance and are charging good money? Because these retailers "sell" themselves, creating a market in their areas. People seem to think, if your a good installer, the customers will come. No, it depends on your relationship with your customers, your attitide and the value of your services. You have to create you own work. If you cannot offer anything more than a big box retailer, why would a customer come to your shop? Maybe ask yourself this...no one wants to cheapest ****, no one wants the minimum. You have to "sell" yourself or the idea of the retail store. Alot of companies forget this. Ask yourself, what is the "vision" of your company? What are you trying to do or sell? Think about it...if you want to do fibreglass boxes all day, what are you doing to promote your store in that direction?

Hum...

Another thing to do with James point is to do it right and charge right. Sure you may quote $2500 on some custom work to find out that another shop got the job because they quoted $1500. One of two things is going to happen here (assuming the job was really worth $2500), either the other shop is going to do a very good job but not make any money, or even lose money, or they are going to cut corners to make the job profitable and the customer will have a hack job. Either way the other place will either stop undercutting your price, or they will go out of business due to the fact they aren't making money.

or they will get into the job(under false pretenses), start trying to change the original design around and tell the guy its going to cost more

It's definatley the industry killing itself... but what do you expect when shops and box stores are popping up all over the country.. Most often in an already oversaturated market.

I live in a market with maybe 150K people, we have 2 large box's and 3 smaller chains, and 3-4 heavy independants.. and countless "shops" that spring up for remote Starters.

How many Car audio places can a market support..

I agree with what John said, the industry is making it WAY to easy for the DIY guy to do it himself. sales guy is going to load up the customer with all the harnesses, adapters and kits required to do his install, and remember to attach a nice paying warranty before he mentions the he could have it installed. :rolleyes:

Yeah Regina is a tough market, and salemanship on the part of sales people is a real problem as well. Oh well, just makes it easier for me if I ever open a shop!

my solution to the problem of dumb salesman is this
my installers are my salesman thay get paid twice and they only have to install what they sell you cant bitch if it dont fit.

i feel the cust like's to deal with the installer
that is working on his/her car.

the way i see it is this,
1) the mechanic that made 50 and hours 10 years ago can now charge 65-75 an hour. they can do this cause of thier certification and their training and where it comes from. you grab a mechanic from 10 years ago and throw him in a shop. he will most likley not know what to do(cause of the comps involved). ive known mechanics that have had to go back and re-educate themselves to be able to get hired. same goes for an installer. they were not making intensive installs 10-15 years ago as they do now. but what is the diffference? cars cost more? training techinicians costs more? comp analysers costs more? throw away product? big chain store? Personally its the education. there are so many courses that a mechanic has to take nowadays to keep current. evey time there is a mention about mecp certification on cca there is a split amounst whether it is good or bad. if there were more schools that offered certification, and more schools that were accredited, then there would be higher wages. there would be a standard that would be followed and that standard would increase with time and technology and inflation, same as the mechanics wage. many guys will argue this point till blue in the face, but seriously do you not think that if mecp were offered in bcit nait sait, etc. that there would be an increase of rates for installers same as the mechanic? i think there would.

2) wages. 50% of an install is the standard usually depending on where you work. what we have to do for that 50 is increasingly more then what it was years ago. i really dont know as an installer, cause i am still green, but if you grab any job, you will see that the duties of that same job many years ago was diffent. an employee is contsantly being asked to do more with less, and for les money. and that goes for about any job. to me an installer 15 years ago installed equipment, but now id say an installer is a automotive surgeon. there is no other technician in the world that completely takes apart a vehicle and reassembles it completely different and still functional.(except for monster garage,lol) but the value of that surgeon is less because of the lack of (try not to throw tomatoes at me) certification. some of the best installer i know are good because of their experiences and not thier certification. certification isnt the complete answer, but i do think that it plays a major role as to why an installers wage is the same as years ago, and why the rate hasnt gone up.

3) salesman. ive seen guys that know absolutely nothing about cars or audio, sell tonnes of it. its is amazing that a salesman can make sales and not rely on knowledge of product to do it. i am thining about this one fellow i know that just makes retarded salary due to his saleman skill, and completely not know about car audio. cant say his name cause he is very well known, but this guys is creme-de-la-crop. its all attitude. selling ice cream to an eskimo. i cant do that. not even close. but he is prosperous because he knows who he is selling to. i think that if you have a store that is small and you are able to sell then that store should be able to prosper. if you grab a store and throw money at it and put a crappy salesman there, it will prosper but it would always have to throw money at it. the conflict is when that saleman doesnt know didly squat about car audio. the installer suffers. ive seen that happen plenty of times too.

no need to argue with me. cause im know that my reason are not the only reason. big chain stores are coming in and all over the place. but i do believe that reputatuion and relationships with consumers are going to keep the independant stores alive. there are many many people with money and all of them(most of them) drive cars. most want that car to sound great. some can only spend hundreds and some spend thousands. there are enough consumers to make everyone pockets big.

[ December 11, 2004, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Team Shadow ]

Yes Pat, it comes down to certification, but what certification do we have? MECP is pretty much an industry joke, and until AES recognizes what we do and offers us education, there never will be anything.

And no offence to any mechanics, but I just had a customer have a fuse replaced at a dealership, total time 1.9hours to diagnose... a fuse.... mechanics are not trained to think anymore, they're trained to follow a flowchart that the manufactures have engineered for maximum profit.

^^^couldnt agree more

thats why i think that an installer can be somewhat also be called a surgeon. takes alot of imagination and common sense.

Our "quoted" shop rate is $55/hour - sometimes I charge $65/hour, why ?? Because if I think the customer will pay it - I'll go for it.

The $55/hr rate is to be competitive with the "box" stores - even that is higher than what they are !!

The $65/hr rate comes into play when we do custom work, that I know they wont be willing to do or cant do !! Hey my installers are worth it, some of these mechanics that are charging $85-$90/hr for changing oil at a car dealership - gimme a break, but customers are paying it.

Just because someone is doing it, doesn't mean you have to follow. (discounting I mean).

I'm a salesman - you don't want me installing - trust me. If a guy is grinding me - i'll take the hit on the gear, not the labour !!
Discounting labour is wrong - unless the installer agrees with it to get the deal !!

There are a lot of good point made here, but the main issue is what is the installer worth/or should be paid?
In my experiences, I've found that any "green" installer will go through his/her learning curve over a period of 2-3 years, and for some reason, after that period, every installer feels he's a "know-it-all", and demands a higher rate for his work.
Granted that after a few years with a company an employee will undergo pay raises and it's at that time that a proper salary should be negotiated.
The problem I see with many shops is lack of co-ordination and communication between the customer-salesperson and installer. The term "TEAM WORK" must come into play here, this is the opportunity for the installer to educate both the salesperson and the consumer as to what will fit, where it will go, and what it will take to do. ( I can sense the frustrations of this problem from some of the posts on this thread).
Every install is a learning experience, and I know that many times a job took far too long than it should have, and I knew that I had to "eat" some labour and attribute it to a learning experience, and I knew what to do next time a similar situation presented itself.
As for certification, yes this industry needs that, and especially to distinguish between experienced and in-experienced installers. I've seen some "Expert" installers make simple yet very costly mistakes.
As for that certification allowing to charge more for labour, hell no! Higher pay, sure. We cannot compare this industry to Mechanics, but we need something similar, including trade schools, such as Mobile Dynamics, that will carry some form of accreditation to allow for personal insurance within the trade.