Raising the frontstage?
08-06-2004, 07:48 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
1" anechoic foan, not to obtrusive and works very well, and get rid of the vinyl headliner, anything shiny=bad, this is a very overlooked area of the car that makes a huge difference when eliminated, i have also used ,i call it car audio carpet, because i see it no where else, the 40" width stuff to experiment with in different spots to hear hopefully some results
08-06-2004, 08:05 AM
#22
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
Um guys.....nobody has asked about seat position.
Depending on the car, the normal driving position can make running a set of kick mounted tweeters pretty impractical. (especially if you have a passenger) High frequency energy doesn't go through legs very well.
Park the car and run the seats all the way back...and kick mounted tweeters work with a bit of tuning.
I'm sure in the next year I'm going to be hammered for my use of the PXA-H900 and a "spare" couple of channels of amplification. In english...I can run 2 sets of tweeters, selecting which Pair I want...or a combination of the 2 with the push of a button...or a click on my laptop.
Got to love technology.
Adam
Depending on the car, the normal driving position can make running a set of kick mounted tweeters pretty impractical. (especially if you have a passenger) High frequency energy doesn't go through legs very well.
Park the car and run the seats all the way back...and kick mounted tweeters work with a bit of tuning.
I'm sure in the next year I'm going to be hammered for my use of the PXA-H900 and a "spare" couple of channels of amplification. In english...I can run 2 sets of tweeters, selecting which Pair I want...or a combination of the 2 with the push of a button...or a click on my laptop.
Got to love technology.
Adam
08-06-2004, 08:35 AM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
gotta love digital x-overs and the ability to easily engage and disengage channels and change x-over points in seconds instead of hours and maybe days, leave your passives in your house. you will never get hammered by me, probobly only by those who havent had the oipportunity to use the pxah900 or 700, or the likes of them, itn just makes adjustments and tuning so much quicker and accurate, the best part is hearing your adjustments in real time, you cant out a value on that
08-08-2004, 04:18 PM
#25
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
Kicks sometimes have difficulty with height, they can be a little directional. Yet I was in Will Reinholtz (IASCA and MECA) VW Golf yesterday and his kicks produce nice height. They were very out in the open and gave a direct path directly at the driver and passenger. I think the early reflections some kicks have give clues to speaker placement. Proper sound treatment under the dash is important with kicks and a good point source (as Adam was mentioning with the 4 driver) helps with timing of sound arrival (coaxial kicks!).
I have found raising the higher midrange level (4k and up) will sometimes improve the impression of height, this is a trick and not a very good one, nor is it consistent car to car. Shelving back the very HF (>14K) a db or two will sometimes improve the sense of depth, again this is not universal. The HF sound waves attenuate easier over distance so by shelving down the HF you simulate depth (of course you are inserting distortion here and recordings using microphones 6 from the instrument will sound wrong).
Tweets in the A-pillars or dash usually work too (physically putting the lower HF up high in the car). A lot of very good sounding cars use tweets in the A-pillars... I wouldn't discount their use but it is not necessarily the best way either. Many of the spatial clues as to depth, height, and width are from first and second reflections of the HF
As far as the rear speaker thing raising the soundstage... sounds a little weird at best, not impossible I suppose (wrapping rear sound off the rear glass and hitting the front windshield?) but well into the I am not buying it range.
[ August 08, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]
I have found raising the higher midrange level (4k and up) will sometimes improve the impression of height, this is a trick and not a very good one, nor is it consistent car to car. Shelving back the very HF (>14K) a db or two will sometimes improve the sense of depth, again this is not universal. The HF sound waves attenuate easier over distance so by shelving down the HF you simulate depth (of course you are inserting distortion here and recordings using microphones 6 from the instrument will sound wrong).
Tweets in the A-pillars or dash usually work too (physically putting the lower HF up high in the car). A lot of very good sounding cars use tweets in the A-pillars... I wouldn't discount their use but it is not necessarily the best way either. Many of the spatial clues as to depth, height, and width are from first and second reflections of the HF
As far as the rear speaker thing raising the soundstage... sounds a little weird at best, not impossible I suppose (wrapping rear sound off the rear glass and hitting the front windshield?) but well into the I am not buying it range.
[ August 08, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]
08-08-2004, 10:03 PM
#27
I think that a set of a-pillar tweets can complement a mid/tweet in the kick very well and the consensus is to cross them over at a higher point like around 6-7k at which point you are in the frequency range of sound where pathlengths are no longer so important but rather plane of axis and intensity. That's how I understand it anyways.
As for the rear speaker thing helping height, I've played with it and ran it in my Avenger. I found it to help somewhat. It seemed that playing the mids at a low level reflecting off the rear glass helped to raise the stage and focus the center image a little more. The speakers I used though were 3.5s which have a somewhat decent higher frequency reproduction than say a 6.5" mid. You can see some of this effect even with a modern sedan and it's factory stereo with door speakers and rear shelf speakers. Fade to the front and the sound sits on the door. Fade in the rear speakers and the stage rises. Kinda ruins your depth though.
As for the rear speaker thing helping height, I've played with it and ran it in my Avenger. I found it to help somewhat. It seemed that playing the mids at a low level reflecting off the rear glass helped to raise the stage and focus the center image a little more. The speakers I used though were 3.5s which have a somewhat decent higher frequency reproduction than say a 6.5" mid. You can see some of this effect even with a modern sedan and it's factory stereo with door speakers and rear shelf speakers. Fade to the front and the sound sits on the door. Fade in the rear speakers and the stage rises. Kinda ruins your depth though.
08-09-2004, 01:40 AM
#28
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,120
I've found the same as you with rear speakers helping the sound stage, this effect can be "tuned" if you have Time Allignment and if that's the kind of sound you're looking for. The drawback is the depth, like you said.
As long as the front speakers are able to handle all frequencies in a linear fashion (except subbass ofcourse, unless you're that lucky) your image should be solid up front...but as soon as the rear speaker is of a greater amplitude at a specific frequency the image gets pulled right into the rear when that frequency is played.
As long as the front speakers are able to handle all frequencies in a linear fashion (except subbass ofcourse, unless you're that lucky) your image should be solid up front...but as soon as the rear speaker is of a greater amplitude at a specific frequency the image gets pulled right into the rear when that frequency is played.
08-09-2004, 01:51 AM
#29
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
Interesting comments guys. My thoughts on this are that sonic imaging cues are blured. The listener's ability to detect descreat directional cues in music is over powered by non-directional energy.
Sure you raise the stage, but it's done by hiding the directional energy (that helps your ears locate the source) in a mass of multidirectional information.
Ironically I might give it a try, just to understand it a bit better.
Adam
Sure you raise the stage, but it's done by hiding the directional energy (that helps your ears locate the source) in a mass of multidirectional information.
Ironically I might give it a try, just to understand it a bit better.
Adam
08-09-2004, 01:38 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Back in the day one of the sales guys at the shop I was at sold a kid a component set and a second set of tweeters for the back of the kid's
94 Civic hatch (with the tailgate door)
With an eye on ease of installation I dropped the tweets flush, facing up, one on each side of the tailgate door. I was surprised at the effect they gave as I faded them in and out. Sure, maybe not the best for imaging or depth but they did fill out the top end nicely and IMO the car had better sound with them included. As the customer was not a competitor but rather someone looking for better sound out of their car I considered them beneficial.
my $0.02
94 Civic hatch (with the tailgate door)
With an eye on ease of installation I dropped the tweets flush, facing up, one on each side of the tailgate door. I was surprised at the effect they gave as I faded them in and out. Sure, maybe not the best for imaging or depth but they did fill out the top end nicely and IMO the car had better sound with them included. As the customer was not a competitor but rather someone looking for better sound out of their car I considered them beneficial.
my $0.02
