t raver1 smith

here is a question for everyone. i have noticed of late that the heading for "general discussion" includes woofer debate.

1 should we have a woofer debate section?

2 how many talk from experience, and not just from their a$$?

the above questions arise not from the knowledge that some choose to talk only but about what they own, but a deeper feeling that some talk about the stuff they have only because that is what know.

everyone who know's me on this board know's that i have my own opinions and am not afraid to express them. at the same time they all know that i support everyone that sticks with the scene, and we all want the same thing.

your opinions are welcome, good, bad, or ugly.

please don't flame this post if it gets wild. thank you.

KillerGrand

People focus WAY too much on subbass and what woofers they should use (ABC vs. XYZ).
Real music is reproduced by a proper front stage and IMO, should be the main concern of most car stereo buffs.

Jmac

People spend like $1000+ on their sub-stage and then use stock speakers powered by a head unit for the rest of the spectrum ... It baffles the mind ...

Team_Obsession

well if you are in the SPL game you are not there to accurately reproduce music, but instead see who can make the loudest sound [img]smile.gif[/img]

Jmac

I was talking strictly daily-drivers For competition use, obviously you're not going to put much into your speakers [img]smile.gif[/img]

pusnboob

iTrader: (1)

I always found that the first thing that needs attention in a stock system is the bottom end. I don't think it's fair to say "real" music is only reproduced in the mid-upper frequency spectrum. I can't stand the sound of a stereo that has empty sounding bass guitars and kick drums with no kick. Classical music without the 40 hz and lower information is just bland.

Sub-sonic bass plays as much a part in music as any other range. It may not provide any assistance in the soundstage department, but it sure does help with the imaging by creating more depth.

Warren.

geolemon

"woofer A vs. woofer B" threads pop up on every forum. You can't avoid it, IMO.
There is already a subwoofer forum section, correct? Whether people use it or not is another issue.
In my experience with the forums over the years, if you create too many sub-forums, and specialty-forums, they become like little isolated islands, that people don't visit... and if there's no traffic, people won't use them.

Possibly the moderators here could shuffle things into their appropriate forums more often, routing traffic to them (if things seem more appropriate elsewhere) - but that could mean making some really subjective calls that could be controversial.

Honestly, internet forums are a great place because of this very inherent, self-filtering, self regulating feature...
People making false statements are easily identified by those in-the-know on a given subject, and generally are exposed on the spot, by people who care that misinformation and rumors are extinguished before ing... which is maybe not suprisingly (perhaps you've witnessed it... it's not rare!) a lot of participants.

Ownership of a product is certainly not a prerequisite for knowledge on a product.
A product is simply an implementation of higher-level concepts, which are abstract, and not at all tied to any level of ownership.
Comments can be made about the abstract that apply to numerous products... products inherently fall into these categories.

To complicate things further...
At what point do you have expertise in a product?
Did you buy a product, in a clueless state, and later discover if it's application was appropriate?
Of course not. So that does beg the question.

And also, on the same note, ownership of a product doesn't by any means suddenly imply expertise...

In fact, I've owned a few products (my Phoenix Gold Cyclone was one of them) specifically because I did not know a lot about it at the time, but I wanted to understand it better.

And some things, I fully understood the abstract concepts, and wanted to discover how well the implementation was executed (my JBL GTi 12", which uses interestingly similar dual-gap technology as Adire's XBL2 technology - which we license - but in a dramatically different implementation).

So all I am saying is that knowledge, and ownership - or even personal product experience - have no correlation at all...
UNLESS the question at hand is the most subjective of all questions - "how does it sound?"
And even at that, how do you answer, without the disclaimer of "in my particular install..."

Often, discussing suitibility and compatibility is something that's much better handled in the abstract, understanding the installation scenario, rather than the inherently limited knowledge that any one person can possibly collect of particular products in specific installation scenarios...
After all, it would still take consideration of the abstract to determine if that product was suitable outside of that particular, individual, installation.

Sorry to be so lengthy, obviously this is one of those often-stated subjects that gets me going...

And that's nothing negative to you, t raver1 smith...
I completely and totally understand where you are coming from, it's very understandable...
And I completely 100% agree with the second part of your comment, which (if you allow me to paraphrase) is that newbies who buy their first sub will recommend that sub to anyone looking for a sub as if that sub were THE sub to buy, regardless of how it compares to other stuff out there, because they don't have the experience to compare against.
Or another of my favorites, being the lemming-like "everyone else is recommending _____" type of thing that is everywhere. But hey.

Again, the wonderful thing about these forums is because of this very inherent, self-filtering, self regulating feature...
If someone makes an inappropriate recommendation, they generally are exposed on the spot, and corrected. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

Number 2

iTrader: (1)

[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img] Thank You

Team Shadow

a 20 hz bass note has around 999 diffrent harmonics. lack of sub bass just means lack of all the proper harmonics in the attempt to reproduce proper music . Dishing out spl is just as important as important as sq. the feel of being able to calculate and control the sound very critical. Try not to dismiss it only because you don't care for it.

cause there are many of us who do.
as far as which sub is better, i'd say the one in your car is good. mine is good, so is yours. so is moe's , so is rob's, so is bootlegs, so is chadxton's. there all good. lets not get into a pissing fight over which one is better cause they're all good. well expect for sparkomatic and maybe craig. buts that's another story.

[ October 14, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Team Shadow ]

Loud Brown Kicker Colt

iTrader: (1)

[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img] Thank You </font>[/QUOTE]there is a time and a place for everything.when i'm on the road,i like tonal accuracy,good staging.but when at a comp i like to see stuff pushed to the limit.i prefer spl for the fact that my score is not based on opinion or taste.i admire people that can take a product,install it,and make listening a pleasurable experience.each type of comp has brands that will serve a perpose, usually with experience and cost being the underlying factors.myself i prefer kicker,it works well for both of my tastes:good and loud.i know there is better, but i'd hate to kill a set of AVI 3ways while db dragging,as well there is bigger more powerful amplifiers,but mmatts & D3's just don't sound nice. after all it is a daily driver ...just my $.02

[ October 14, 2003, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Loud Brown Kicker Colt ]