So I printoff the new rules (yay USACi for free rules) and get to reading them - hoping that someone shook some sense into them.

nope.

The wiring protection requirements in the Advanced rules are so overkill it's stunning. Hard conduit ONLY under the hood? please...
Not sure how I feel popping a hole in my car every 6" for every single audio related wire either. [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img]

Now I can understand, maybe, the points for an upgraded battery. It's an easy replacement and we are adding draw to the factory system. To lose (or really, never have a shot at) points because I don't want to replace the alternator on my factory warrantied car though is disappointing. Their suggested power requirement charts made me scratch my head too - at least they are just suggestions..

The rest of the rules have some, well, interesting points but these ones stand out as "WTF" material.

What are other peoples thoughts on these points?

I don't get the whole alternator rule about having to upgrade your alternator by the amount according to their chart OVER AND ABOVE your factory rating. So some guy with a puny 60 amp alternator and a guy with a stout factory alternator of 140 amps have to upsize them by the SAME amount if they have the same amount of power? That's just dumb and shortsighted.

And the rigid conduit thing, perhaps some of the USAC fans out there can shed some light on this and maybe even provide some pics on how one is to put in rigid plastic conduit or bend up some metal EMT and terminate it in a pleasing fashion under the hood.

It seems that a lot of these rules were thought up by some tweaky, -retentive DYIer who has maybe only ever worked on his own car.

I think that the alternator rule is a stanby of being for dealers, what dealer doesn't want to sell you a $500 alternator? [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

As for the rigid conduit, that is whack.

I don't get the "popping a hole in my car every 6" for every single audio related wire" thing though. Why would you have to do that? If it is because you need to fasten them, just use the "pyramid" stick on tie strap thingies.

IASCA !!!!

MECA posts its rules on line

MECA does not have a lot of install baggage on their score sheet either. I don’t care if the power wire is wrapped in Techflex, conduit, EMI sheeting or magic pixie dust it will not improve the power transfer nor will it improve the SQ. Safety is the only priority, everything else is window dressing.

EDIT: I AM NOT slamming IASCA or USACi here meerly singing the virtues of an alternative

[ March 31, 2005, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: JohnVroom ]

So advanced class is overkill. That's why they call it advanced. Is it to hard for old IASCA guys?

Tim is the biggest keyboard commando alive. You do nothing for IASCA. The local guy that is doing a small show or 2 doesn't care if it's IASCA or USAC or any of these rules you mentioned. Every sport has rules people don't agree with. If you don't like the rules, get involved to change them. But you won't because that would be too much work.

holy crap where'd that come from???? :confused:

Wow.............all that for just saying one word :D

Bryce. First of all - you had better keep things straight. You seem to be mixing Tim's responses and my responses up. I was the one looking for opinions on the rules. Tim was the one voicing his preference for IASCA.

In either case, we were both competing and judging IASCA before you were even out of grade school. I used to get the same number of cars out to a Summer Thunder event in Lloydminster that JBs would get to PowerRama. Furthermore, Tim single-handedly carried IASCA in the Vancouver area for at least three seasons so you should be listening instead of talking right now. I realize that you have that two years of competition experience but don't even begin to think you know..

Before I made this post I was messaging with a member of this board and I told them some smartass would pipe up about it being the 'Advanced class' and you have to step if you want to play. Congratulations on being the ass.
Advanced class or not, the rules I mentioned are unusual and I was, and still am, looking at opinions on what people think about them and, more importantly, how they complied.


Dereck - the Advanced rules state that wires must be secured at regular intervals of 6" or less to maximize points. When I used to judge IASCA I did not consider stick on mounts as permanent and would not expect a USACi judge to either.

I think they are permanent enough, the rule just says "secured at regular intervals" right? otherwise I would say weld some billet aluminum mounts every 6 inches [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img]

rigid conduit is only required when wire is ran underneath the car near a high heat source, in this case split loom is sufficient

no where in the rules does it state that you have to pop a hole in your car every 6", it does say that you must have the wire securly fastened every 6", this can be a factory wire harness for example. if you can convince a judge that the pyramid things are secrure than so be it

i agree about the alternator upgrade its overkill, but there are creative ways around the alternator rules, so be creative

securing your power wires under the hood every 6" is a bad thing?

the advanced class does have some, lets call them, specific rules, when it comes to installation, they are trying to really differentiate how a basic car and a advanced car gets judged, and trying to do this in writing can be challenging as it forces you to write in a matter of fact because its hard to write in the grey area. usac does require a creative interpretation of the rules, and you will be given 7 minutes to explain your system and your individual interpretation of those rules, in usac, the 7 minutes are very important

think of it this way, dont try to earn points, try not to lose them, everyone starts out with maximum install points, its up to you how many you lose.

as well guys your picture log should have at least 100 pics in it. everything that a judge cant see, wiring under carpet secured every 6" for instance, had better have a picture in your book, laptop, or whatever method you choose to show your pics

i will bne happy to answer any ? on this topic, and bryce, your awsome, err on the side of overreacting, take it easy my shady friend, we almost all friends here :D

ftr, if the adavanced rules are not for you, you can always go in the basic class where there isnt as much emphasis on install and everyone favorite topic, drivers seat only sq

[ April 01, 2005, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: defro13 ]

I agree with the alternator as well, but it makes sense. Car manufactures make cars as "slimmed down as possible" meaning the alternator does the minimum to power your car. The 96-04 chevy cavalier is a great example. That alternator is a piece of sh*t. So any demand over the stock putput should be upgraded. That why we all do the cheapest way, and add a battery (lol). If anyone pm's me about the issue, I can help them get around the rules. Also why not try the "SQ" class instead of Advanced? You do not need an alternator unpgrade!

In regards to the wiring intervals, use your head a little...I bought little "sticky" feet for my wire ties. It cost me $20, and I got perfect on install. I only drilled 6 holes in the body, but a choose areas where double steel was. It's not stupid, doing a perfect install with no chance of failing, that's awesome. You guys forget I ran IASCA in western canada for 2 years and competed of 7. Dealers wanted USACi, and it has had great success. I had more cars at the Western Finals than any sanctuted car audio show in Canada in 10 years. Any questions, feel free to post them, I find the answers as quickly as possible. Would you guys like a rules thread?

No worries Tim, your a great supporter of SQ.

Hmm, to get around the alternator rule, wouldn't you just need a fake receipt that says you had the factory alternator rewound? Same as all the guys back in the day in amateur who had "receipts" that showed they paid retail.

that wouldnt be honest now would it ;)

^ I don't play that way.


James - if "sticky feet" are considered acceptable, is duct tape? How about if someone routed their cables and then glued the carpet down into place? I don't plan on using either method but figured I would ask.

If your in 1-600 there is loopholes. Like if your current draw is low enough only the charging wire(s) need to be upgraded.

dukk, a pully swap would be considered an upgrade, im not advocating dishonest competing, just encouraging people to be creative in the way they go about their builds, to be compeitive and not get your ass handed to you, you have to do the very things that you competition is doing, not cheating but exploiting the rules to your advantage, its just smart competing

Oh sure - sometimes one has to be creative with a rule but getting a fake receipt (not your suggestion) is too far IMO.

Incidentally - on the topic of power... I was under my hood the other day wrestling with my power cables and was looking at my battery. You must have used a shoehorn to get two batteries under there [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

[ April 01, 2005, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Dukk ]

fake receipts is a little too far, and yes getting those batteries under the hood is a very tight squeeze, , without a new intake of some sort you would never be able to do what we did

Yes I noted your AEM intake and the breadmaker sized factory aircleaner on mine. Time to get a K&N I think. man...spend spend spend [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I never said a fake receipt...duct tape is for farmers. It you have to service a cable, and you simply unstick it, and place it back down, it will qualify for tied down but not easily accessible. Removing 2 or 3 wire ties, then placing the wire back in the holder, that's both accessible and secured. It like the old IASCA rule "you are judged on the seen wiring" people would built display areas for wiring, but the wiring wasn't connected to anything, right Tim? Wink, Wink.....

By the way, I'm really excited that you guys are reading the rules and maybe building some cars. Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

Duct tape is for farmers eh? wink, wink.....

its a good thing that people are showing intrest in usac and competing in gereral, we will have 6 cars including the neon going to kansas this novemeber, dukk and everyone else for that matter, if you win regionals in august, would you go to kansas?

Just to set the record straight I was just sayiong what other might have done. Not what I would do, as upgraded alternators aren't expensive for my car.

if i had to in my last car i can not be done the bmw 735 had the bigges that they had .the upgraded battery there is not a bigger one out there unless i got a D9cat battery and the wire off the alternator was 0g wire the alternator need to be air cooled
the hard wire is not that hard (over kill)if you ran it in the fram of the car would that get by


Now I can understand, maybe, the points for an upgraded battery. It's an easy replacement and we are adding draw to the factory system. To lose (or really, never have a shot at) points because I don't want to replace the alternator on my factory warrantied car though is disappointing. Their suggested power requirement charts made me scratch my head too - at least they are just suggestions

see in link http://www.roadfly.org/bmw/gallery/p...26165,1;-64,4;
6" or less

if judges arent made aware(your responsibility to make them aware), then you wont get points for it, in advanced they are looking for people to push the envelope and be concious of even the most minute of details, no matter how silly they may seem. they are "supposed" to be the "best" cars and should be installed and judged accordingly. if you install your system by the word of the rulebook, most of which is stuff that should be done regardless, and you do design and install your sq system well, you will be very competitive, the advanced class isnt for everyone, its a very tough class, i might even say its harder than expert. the install will take far more time(read:$$$) to be competitive, and that makes it not for everyone, that is why there is the street(basic) class for people, where install isnt judged as hard. all organizations have their flaws, iasca, meca, db drag, people always have and always will have concerns about the rules. like i said before build it to not lose points and not to gain them.

^ Well, my attempt here is to maximize points. The complaints I have revolve around areas where you miss ppints by not doing something unneeded.

Examples:

1) The alternator upgrade thing. My alternator may be perfectly capable of handling my system draw. In fact whether it is or not is not even the issue - if it's stock you get 0 of 3.

2) Upgraded Battery. Similar to above, the issue is not even whether the factory battery is capable - if you run your stock battery you get 0 of 3.

I harp about these two because for many vehicles you can get a factory heavy duty charging system option. I wonder how they split that hair - technically it us an upgrade over the base stock system but it is still factory.
Furthermore, some cars have capable factory alternators while others do not. I had a Z28 and SUX2BU had a Mustang GT. Both V8, full load cars. The Z had a 110amp alternator, the GT a 60amp. Put 500watts in the Z and you need a 160amp alt (50 amp upgrade) by the rules and in the GT a 110 amp alt - the SAME size as the FACTORY one on the Z. That rule is plain bizarre.

3) Amp cooling. lol, this one made me scratch my head too. 10 points on the line here, a fair bit IMO. My amp rack is exposed and the amps will have excellent ambient cooling. By the letter of the rules though I may get max 5 out of 10 possible points just because I do not have any fans that I don't need. I think I have an additional cooling scheme worked out though - it just bugs me that I am forced to do it.

Incidentally, Manic - by the current rules your friend should have received the full 5 points for Effectiveness (providing he showed it moved "adequate" air - I bet only a handful of us here could 'prove' that if we had to) but may have received 0-5 for creativeness depending on the judge, the class, and his presentation.

I'm a relatively serious competitor - I don't get bent if I lose at a show but I do not like to roll in knowing I am losing points already. Just grinds at the spine, ya know?

As for Kansas - probably not. I have a 'spare' week of holidays I could take but I could not justify the expense. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] It would be interesting to have a caravan of Neons/SXs from Canada though [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

The guy have 8 layers of protection but maybe he didn't use a grommet in the firewall. You don't know the reason. Remember power wire means from the amplifiers or accessories to the battery. You have to remember that alot of these guys are at the WORLD LEVEL...it alot harder and different. I don't think a gave anyone in Canada the 3 points for the alternator. No one had it done so, it doesn't matter. It your a USACi member, you get 5 bonus points. That will cancel out the "3" point issue.

dukk, i had minor modifications done to my stock alternator that qualified it as upgraded, you could/should do the same, its cheap and gets the points

In my opinion you don't need to sweat all of the rules unless you plan on making it to the world finals. It has a completly different level of expectations to compete. These rules give you a good idea of what your going to be up against at the world level.
Most cars you see around here are not built to these levels, its excesive for a daily driver or average enthusiest and you won't see it except for the few serious competitors planning on finals.
Just go to your local shows, have fun and compete with cars on the same level as you.

i can think of at leat 6 cars that wil be at shows that are built exactly by the book, if losing at the local events by maybe a few points is your thing than dont take the little bit of extra time that it takes to do it, the things that are asked for arent that expspensive or time consuming, so not doing them doesnt make any sense, even for the local competitor who doesnt have aspirations for the finals, and at the end of the day everyone should be pround to say that it was done correctly without cutting any rulebook corners

Dave, I'm not saying cut any corners. If I take another car down to finals you better believe that it will be built with every rule covered.
I think that alot of people read these threads and turn away from the competion scene because of the high standards level set by the rules for the pros.
I just want to remind everyone that your car doesn't have to be to this level to be competative in its respective class.
The rules are much different in basic classes.

you are right, but to spend the extra day maybe that it would take to do the wirirng like the rules want isnt that big of a deal it would seem, would it? people get turned off because they think that the little things that should be done are time consuming and costly, when in fact, that isnt true at all, would you agree?

The parts required to run wire to the rules are not expensive true, but paying a shop to do a USACi correct install can be too much. Most people won't see the value of the extra work in their everyday lives. A lot of the shops around here have no idea what usac is or where to get some of the unique parts required.

the stuff required by the rules are things that even a mobile dynamics "graduate" could handle, which means that even the greenest of diy'er could manage, im trying to get the point across to potential new competitors that you dont have to sell your 1st born to get a system worthy of competing, we shouldnt be scaring people but encouraging them to learn more and get educated about what is required to compete at not only a local level but a national one as well

^ You make an excellent point.

I should have started out stating that I am going to be in Advanced Pro 600+ and that there are both Beginner and Intermediate classes that are not so heavy on the rules.

Truly, anyone from the casual enthusiast to the experienced veteran can compete against other people with similar systems. IMO you can build a competitive car with under $1500 in gear - retail.

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