What to do?
07-16-2005, 07:16 PM
#21
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Posts: n/a
Again though, once the distributor has allowed one company to advertise online, all other authorized dealers are now able to do the same thing.
And Rob, as a distributor if someone calls me from Butthump Saskatchewan and I don't have a dealer within, say, the Province, your damn rights I would sell to them direct. In a heartbeat. Say YOU are my closest dealer - how are you going to service that customer more effectively than me? Certainly, if there was a dealer remotely close then they would get the recommend.
As I recall though - you wanted to sell to a customer that HAS a local dealer.
07-18-2005, 11:39 AM
#22
I should have mentioned that once a distributor has "allowed" a dealed to advertise and sell on line, it has created a legal precadent that all other dealers may follow. No distributor in Canada has the legal right to force any retailer into dictating how much the items must sell for, nor where they are to be sold. Thus being "allowed" is perhaps the wrong choice of words.
Again, I am not going to sit around and wait for customers to come in my door. The market is changing and I will change with it.
Consider this valid point. A customer, any customer can and will shop where they want. In this case that started the thread, the customer wanted to shop with me. Grasp that fact please. Where a customer chooses to shop has nothing to do with a territory, it has to do with their personal choice. If they chose to deal with me, so be it.
Again, I lose sales all the time to my competition, sometimes I know about them, sometimes I do not. Do all the lost sales go to local dealers, nope, I have lost some to lower mainland dealers, down Island dealers and even Northern Alberta dealers. That is business and I accept that fact and know that there is nothing I can do to prevent it.
My main point, the INTEGRITY of the distributor is only as good as their ability to take care of their dealer base. A distributor with any shred of INTEGRITY will say to the person calling or e-mailing, please consider these authorized dealers to take care of your interests.
Paul, if you are the person who you claim to be in this quote "And Rob, as a distributor if someone calls me from Butthump Saskatchewan and I don't have a dealer within, say, the Province, your damn rights I would sell to them direct. In a heartbeat." I would be calling your integrity into question like right now..... No offence intended either.
Paul, as this thread applies to our industry, so should your example. Instead your example is a wildly exaggerated claim of nothing to do with this situation as it applies to our industry....are you selling this guy in Butthump a new vibrator that is only available from a BC dealer as you have not secured any local dealers for him? Who's fault is that, the customers for having no local dealer or yours for not building your dealer base? Would you then compromise your dealer base? Your comments are in total contradiction to each other... "I would sell to them direct. In a heartbeat." followed by "Certainly, if there was a dealer remotely close then they would get the recommend." So what side of the fence are you playing on? You seem to be confused with business and whether you are a distributor with integrity or a retailer.
Paul, to make a educated and informed opinion on how I see things, please go out and put your $150,000 on the line and open your own store. Until that day comes, you have absolutely no right to inform me on how to run my business, please understand that. Until then you will not understand my side of the fence. Again, I listen to the things you say and some things I will agree with and we don't need to talk about those. Other things that I disagree with, well we can BS back and forth until the cows come home but chances are you will not change my mind.
Next batter.....
Again, I am not going to sit around and wait for customers to come in my door. The market is changing and I will change with it.
Consider this valid point. A customer, any customer can and will shop where they want. In this case that started the thread, the customer wanted to shop with me. Grasp that fact please. Where a customer chooses to shop has nothing to do with a territory, it has to do with their personal choice. If they chose to deal with me, so be it.
Again, I lose sales all the time to my competition, sometimes I know about them, sometimes I do not. Do all the lost sales go to local dealers, nope, I have lost some to lower mainland dealers, down Island dealers and even Northern Alberta dealers. That is business and I accept that fact and know that there is nothing I can do to prevent it.
My main point, the INTEGRITY of the distributor is only as good as their ability to take care of their dealer base. A distributor with any shred of INTEGRITY will say to the person calling or e-mailing, please consider these authorized dealers to take care of your interests.
Paul, if you are the person who you claim to be in this quote "And Rob, as a distributor if someone calls me from Butthump Saskatchewan and I don't have a dealer within, say, the Province, your damn rights I would sell to them direct. In a heartbeat." I would be calling your integrity into question like right now..... No offence intended either.
Paul, as this thread applies to our industry, so should your example. Instead your example is a wildly exaggerated claim of nothing to do with this situation as it applies to our industry....are you selling this guy in Butthump a new vibrator that is only available from a BC dealer as you have not secured any local dealers for him? Who's fault is that, the customers for having no local dealer or yours for not building your dealer base? Would you then compromise your dealer base? Your comments are in total contradiction to each other... "I would sell to them direct. In a heartbeat." followed by "Certainly, if there was a dealer remotely close then they would get the recommend." So what side of the fence are you playing on? You seem to be confused with business and whether you are a distributor with integrity or a retailer.
Paul, to make a educated and informed opinion on how I see things, please go out and put your $150,000 on the line and open your own store. Until that day comes, you have absolutely no right to inform me on how to run my business, please understand that. Until then you will not understand my side of the fence. Again, I listen to the things you say and some things I will agree with and we don't need to talk about those. Other things that I disagree with, well we can BS back and forth until the cows come home but chances are you will not change my mind.
Next batter.....
07-18-2005, 02:05 PM
#23
Batter up....
As usual there are two valid perspectives to this arguement, both with legitimate claims.
I have had many people make requests about products I represented, including the product I represent now and my answer has always been the same... "your local dealer is...". Now, if someone says "I hate my local dealer" or "I like to buy from Rob or Bill or Buddy" and there is no conflict we will see what we can do. I cannot or will not sell to the consumer.
However, I will also say that I will only send business to stores that stock my goods -- too many times in the past I had non-stocking dealers try to get me to hand them an "insta-sale" when they do not/have not/will not buy product from me. Yes, retailers promote products; however, should not the retailer be an actually dealer with stock to sell said product?
As for the internet... it is my personal view that if you are going to swim in the water, you may end up being eaten by sharks...
Whether someone is a retailer who gets beaten up by another retailer or a consumer who gets kicked in the nuts by hardcore duties and taxes or broken product, I have found that like many other things in life... "objects in the mirror may be different than they appear" when viewed via the information highway.
As usual there are two valid perspectives to this arguement, both with legitimate claims.
I have had many people make requests about products I represented, including the product I represent now and my answer has always been the same... "your local dealer is...". Now, if someone says "I hate my local dealer" or "I like to buy from Rob or Bill or Buddy" and there is no conflict we will see what we can do. I cannot or will not sell to the consumer.
However, I will also say that I will only send business to stores that stock my goods -- too many times in the past I had non-stocking dealers try to get me to hand them an "insta-sale" when they do not/have not/will not buy product from me. Yes, retailers promote products; however, should not the retailer be an actually dealer with stock to sell said product?
As for the internet... it is my personal view that if you are going to swim in the water, you may end up being eaten by sharks...
Whether someone is a retailer who gets beaten up by another retailer or a consumer who gets kicked in the nuts by hardcore duties and taxes or broken product, I have found that like many other things in life... "objects in the mirror may be different than they appear" when viewed via the information highway.
07-18-2005, 06:48 PM
#24
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Posts: n/a
Rob - I believe it is you who is contradictory. You cry and snivel when anyone on the upper half of the Island does not patronize only your stores yet you feel you have the right to pirate another dealer's territory. riiiight...
What was so hard to grasp - I said that I would sell direct to a customer where I had no reasonable dealer presence. Then I said that if indeed there WAS a dealer presence then the end user would get directed towards them. This, to me, sounds reasonable.
I would like to see which dealer agreement you have that shows you have cross territory rights. None of the majors have them that I have seen. Hell, many of them track distribution by serial number to counter such a thing. I would love to see the results of you pumping large volume of one of your major brands into another territory..
I love this one. It's moronic. So, a new company with limited exposure gets a call from within a territory that has no presence yet. So then what? Make a random choice what existing dealer to send them to. Boy, if Forbidden is not the one chosen I can imagine the **** storm...
But then I suppose that this is how it should be: You get ALL your territory sales AND whatever other territory sales you decide you want that day. Furthermore all vendores should always call Forbidden before directing any random end user to any other dealer.
Any dealer with morals would have told the customer to call their local dealer. You did not. Your credibility is gone.
And I resent the implication that because my name is not on the title to a retail outlet that I have no idea what I am talking about. You are the one with no clue.
What was so hard to grasp - I said that I would sell direct to a customer where I had no reasonable dealer presence. Then I said that if indeed there WAS a dealer presence then the end user would get directed towards them. This, to me, sounds reasonable.
I would like to see which dealer agreement you have that shows you have cross territory rights. None of the majors have them that I have seen. Hell, many of them track distribution by serial number to counter such a thing. I would love to see the results of you pumping large volume of one of your major brands into another territory..
...that is only available from a BC dealer as you have not secured any local dealers for him? Who's fault is that, the customers for having no local dealer or yours for not building your dealer base? Would you then compromise your dealer base? Your comments are in total contradiction to each other...
But then I suppose that this is how it should be: You get ALL your territory sales AND whatever other territory sales you decide you want that day. Furthermore all vendores should always call Forbidden before directing any random end user to any other dealer.
Any dealer with morals would have told the customer to call their local dealer. You did not. Your credibility is gone.
And I resent the implication that because my name is not on the title to a retail outlet that I have no idea what I am talking about. You are the one with no clue.
07-18-2005, 08:12 PM
#25
I was crying and snivelling was I. Actually Paul, The point I was getting across that it seems you have misinterpretted was that we should be supporting the Canadian Industry and not allowing linking to US websites therefor having our business taken to another country, or did you miss that.... I can again provide you quotes if you like or have .... forgotten.
Next, if for one second you think a retailer maybe like FS or A&B will allow them selves to be "handled" by a manufacturer or distributor. I don't think so. The day that a Big Box of any name will cave into the demands of how a retailer tells them how to do business and where they can do it is just plain absurd. Does FS have a agreement of any type to prohibit them pumping any number of deals into any certain area in this country from an on-line store.... nope, not one dealer agreement will show this. So I guess since I am not a Big Box, I should have to play by a different set of rules? I do not think so and I am sure that any other person who owns their own store will agree. Too bad they don't (or won't) reply on this thread. Perhaps then you will see a little more insight into what I am saying.
Paul, a distributor is about building a long term profitable relationship with their dealer base. Can you at least wrap your head around that fact. Why on earth would they want to shoot themselves in the foot. It seems that you think it is alright to do so by your own words which again I can quote if you like but I am sure that a quick scroll up will remind all. Short term gain = long term pain here more than ever. Should a distributor find the need to change direction by means of product lines... chances are that the dealer base will follow suit. If you go around selling direct to a customer and the dealer base is aware of this, what do you think is going to happen to the line and it's ability for the dealer to build it in the marketplace. Time for a new line with a new distributor.
To answer your question, this of course depends on the distributor. It may also depend on the relationship the distributor has with the dealer base. A proper response to a question of where to purchase is to supply the potential customer with a number of dealers to contact. Thus it increases the line and profitability for that dealer and of course for yourself. Sell it direct and you lose out on that crucial building of the line at a dealer level and all of the hard work that they can put into building the line for you. So again, I find your statement that I quoted absurd. I cannot fathom why you would sell direct at all.
Again as I stated earlier, "Again, I lose sales all the time to my competition, sometimes I know about them, sometimes I do not. Do all the lost sales go to local dealers, nope, I have lost some to lower mainland dealers, down Island dealers and even Northern Alberta dealers. That is business and I accept that fact and know that there is nothing I can do to prevent it."
"Any dealer with morals would have told the customer to call their local dealer. You did not. Your credibility is gone." Paul, if you are in business, ask yourself why on earth you would send business to your competition....see that fact, nothing like cutting your own throat. "Sorry sir, you have to deal with Sorebutt's in Butthump Sask. for that new gadget you want there. Well of course I have it in stock, well no I won't sell it to you, no you have to buy it somewhere else, my distributor said so." Nothing like sending business to your competition. Sometimes situation dependent I can understand the need for this but to make a blanket policy regarding this..absurd, especially with the growth of online retailing by the Big Box stores that we indipendent dealers must react to.
Hmmm, my credibility is gone because god forbid a customer wants to deal with me and he is located in another dealers area. Is that not what the word competition implies. And for that I have no credibility.... the customer in question that this thread pertains to, DID NOT contact any dealer other than me and the distributor. So exactly where did my credibility go? Seems credibility and my integrity is right here for all to see.
The results of me pumping large numbers of boxes out to somewhere else is matched with a larger volume discount at the end of the year and sometime even dealer trips etc. But as you are not a store owner or manager, this is foreign to you. Does the distributor care where the FS or A&B on-line stores send their boxes to, nope. so why should they now care about me. Again business is changing and I will change with it to maintain the profitability of my store. You seem to forget that I am the captain of this ship, not you with your ideals on how I should run my store. I sleep fine at night knowing that my customer get looked after and received great value for their investment. My number one source of business....is return clientele, number 2 is referalls all based on the work that I do with an initial customer.
Do you think that Dave in Kelowna is going to whine and moan because I sell things to the guys in Kelowna or Armstrong and Vernon where I once spent over half my life...nope, he knows that these customers will follow me no matter what. Am I aware that his years in the lower mainland has led to many customers for him that will follow him a well, yup I am. Do I refer my installs to him for them, yes I do. So dealers can indeed work together and as a matter of fact, I have done the same for Dave as well. (the Compustar remote Dave in case you forgot).
Business is business, I am not here to make friends, although I have a great many in this industry I am proud to call friends. I am here to become a profitable retailer and have been for the 20 years that I have been in this industry and 10 years with my own store, so do not even think about lecturing me on business and my ability to play by your rules governing business.
Again, put your money on the line and I will respect your insight with much more credibility and integrity as you will have the necessary business background to substantiate it. The day that you put your money on the line and start to send business to your competition, is the day that you need to find another job. As you are not directly involved in the industry and do not derive a sole source of living out of it, your comments are mainly baseless, however as I said previously, I respect your opinion and welcome it. Seems as though you do not respect mine which is really too bad.
Next, if for one second you think a retailer maybe like FS or A&B will allow them selves to be "handled" by a manufacturer or distributor. I don't think so. The day that a Big Box of any name will cave into the demands of how a retailer tells them how to do business and where they can do it is just plain absurd. Does FS have a agreement of any type to prohibit them pumping any number of deals into any certain area in this country from an on-line store.... nope, not one dealer agreement will show this. So I guess since I am not a Big Box, I should have to play by a different set of rules? I do not think so and I am sure that any other person who owns their own store will agree. Too bad they don't (or won't) reply on this thread. Perhaps then you will see a little more insight into what I am saying.
Paul, a distributor is about building a long term profitable relationship with their dealer base. Can you at least wrap your head around that fact. Why on earth would they want to shoot themselves in the foot. It seems that you think it is alright to do so by your own words which again I can quote if you like but I am sure that a quick scroll up will remind all. Short term gain = long term pain here more than ever. Should a distributor find the need to change direction by means of product lines... chances are that the dealer base will follow suit. If you go around selling direct to a customer and the dealer base is aware of this, what do you think is going to happen to the line and it's ability for the dealer to build it in the marketplace. Time for a new line with a new distributor.
To answer your question, this of course depends on the distributor. It may also depend on the relationship the distributor has with the dealer base. A proper response to a question of where to purchase is to supply the potential customer with a number of dealers to contact. Thus it increases the line and profitability for that dealer and of course for yourself. Sell it direct and you lose out on that crucial building of the line at a dealer level and all of the hard work that they can put into building the line for you. So again, I find your statement that I quoted absurd. I cannot fathom why you would sell direct at all.
Again as I stated earlier, "Again, I lose sales all the time to my competition, sometimes I know about them, sometimes I do not. Do all the lost sales go to local dealers, nope, I have lost some to lower mainland dealers, down Island dealers and even Northern Alberta dealers. That is business and I accept that fact and know that there is nothing I can do to prevent it."
"Any dealer with morals would have told the customer to call their local dealer. You did not. Your credibility is gone." Paul, if you are in business, ask yourself why on earth you would send business to your competition....see that fact, nothing like cutting your own throat. "Sorry sir, you have to deal with Sorebutt's in Butthump Sask. for that new gadget you want there. Well of course I have it in stock, well no I won't sell it to you, no you have to buy it somewhere else, my distributor said so." Nothing like sending business to your competition. Sometimes situation dependent I can understand the need for this but to make a blanket policy regarding this..absurd, especially with the growth of online retailing by the Big Box stores that we indipendent dealers must react to.
Hmmm, my credibility is gone because god forbid a customer wants to deal with me and he is located in another dealers area. Is that not what the word competition implies. And for that I have no credibility.... the customer in question that this thread pertains to, DID NOT contact any dealer other than me and the distributor. So exactly where did my credibility go? Seems credibility and my integrity is right here for all to see.
The results of me pumping large numbers of boxes out to somewhere else is matched with a larger volume discount at the end of the year and sometime even dealer trips etc. But as you are not a store owner or manager, this is foreign to you. Does the distributor care where the FS or A&B on-line stores send their boxes to, nope. so why should they now care about me. Again business is changing and I will change with it to maintain the profitability of my store. You seem to forget that I am the captain of this ship, not you with your ideals on how I should run my store. I sleep fine at night knowing that my customer get looked after and received great value for their investment. My number one source of business....is return clientele, number 2 is referalls all based on the work that I do with an initial customer.
Do you think that Dave in Kelowna is going to whine and moan because I sell things to the guys in Kelowna or Armstrong and Vernon where I once spent over half my life...nope, he knows that these customers will follow me no matter what. Am I aware that his years in the lower mainland has led to many customers for him that will follow him a well, yup I am. Do I refer my installs to him for them, yes I do. So dealers can indeed work together and as a matter of fact, I have done the same for Dave as well. (the Compustar remote Dave in case you forgot).
Business is business, I am not here to make friends, although I have a great many in this industry I am proud to call friends. I am here to become a profitable retailer and have been for the 20 years that I have been in this industry and 10 years with my own store, so do not even think about lecturing me on business and my ability to play by your rules governing business.
Again, put your money on the line and I will respect your insight with much more credibility and integrity as you will have the necessary business background to substantiate it. The day that you put your money on the line and start to send business to your competition, is the day that you need to find another job. As you are not directly involved in the industry and do not derive a sole source of living out of it, your comments are mainly baseless, however as I said previously, I respect your opinion and welcome it. Seems as though you do not respect mine which is really too bad.
07-19-2005, 11:09 AM
#27
Tom, good question. I would want to research this more before I make a decision on it. At the forefront though, I would ensure that I was an authorized dealer of course. Unfortunately, e-tailing is being forced onto all dealers and it will dictate how business is done in the future. E-tailing both authorized and un-authorized is here to stay and there is little that can be done about it, especially the un-authorized variety.
My goal is to be a great indipendent dealer to my local marketplace first and foremost, however, I cannot and will not stop a potential customer from making contact with my business for products that I have or may have available. This is what a specialty retailer does, is find the right product for the paying customer.
[ July 19, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: MR2NR ]
My goal is to be a great indipendent dealer to my local marketplace first and foremost, however, I cannot and will not stop a potential customer from making contact with my business for products that I have or may have available. This is what a specialty retailer does, is find the right product for the paying customer.
[ July 19, 2005, 12:11 PM: Message edited by: MR2NR ]
07-19-2005, 01:24 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Your comments make me chuckle.
Future Shop's dealer agreement with their vendors authorizes online sales. YOURS does not. Do you think you sign the same agreement as every other dealer? Funny. Try reading it maybe... Yes indeed you DO play by a different set of rules.
Of course I do not really expect you to understand the concept of give and take when it comes to customers and territories. They're all yours anyway, right?
I agree! I think a new motto is in order:
Support the Canadian Industry - Pirate your Fellow Independent Retailers
Whatcha figure? Kind of catchy no?
I am curious though - what are you doing to promote your industry. Seems like you are promoting your own profitability at the expense of the industry [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
If I was Dave, I would offer equipment at cost to anyone who was considering purchasing from an out of territory gear pirate.
Some insight as you seem to have no idea what I do. I am in industrial sales. We are an independent specialty distributor and retailer for a number of products from various vendors. We have a territory and we sell our products into it. If someone calls from outside it we direct them to the appropriate dealer in their area for that product and the other dealers do the same for us. Piracy is limited as it seems in this industry people have some integrity. It is not worth a single sale to lose a product line. We work with our vendors, not against them.
Future Shop's dealer agreement with their vendors authorizes online sales. YOURS does not. Do you think you sign the same agreement as every other dealer? Funny. Try reading it maybe... Yes indeed you DO play by a different set of rules.
Of course I do not really expect you to understand the concept of give and take when it comes to customers and territories. They're all yours anyway, right?
...we should be supporting the Canadian Industry ...
Support the Canadian Industry - Pirate your Fellow Independent Retailers
Whatcha figure? Kind of catchy no?
I am curious though - what are you doing to promote your industry. Seems like you are promoting your own profitability at the expense of the industry [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
If I was Dave, I would offer equipment at cost to anyone who was considering purchasing from an out of territory gear pirate.
Some insight as you seem to have no idea what I do. I am in industrial sales. We are an independent specialty distributor and retailer for a number of products from various vendors. We have a territory and we sell our products into it. If someone calls from outside it we direct them to the appropriate dealer in their area for that product and the other dealers do the same for us. Piracy is limited as it seems in this industry people have some integrity. It is not worth a single sale to lose a product line. We work with our vendors, not against them.
07-19-2005, 04:12 PM
#29
Paul, I had a whole long drawn out version here for all to see but this is good enough for now. My question to you is this I guess. I respect you enough to not involve myself in your business, why is it that you must involve yourself in the inner working of mine? A place where unfortunately you have no rights and a place where until you are involved in this industry in a capacity as a owner, you have no business trying to shove your opinions down other peoples throat. Stop while you are still in the game, that way you can come back and play another day. No offence intended, but you are making yourself look like a complete idiot with YOUR opinions that unfortunately I and others do not agree with.
Competition is a healthy and a normal part of business, this is fact that all dealers accept but you cannot wrap your head around as it seems it is firmly planted somewhere else.
BTW... how would you know exactly what is in any (if any) of my dealer agreements... speculation is not a good thing dude, especially if you want to take me on like this.
[ July 19, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: MR2NR ]
Competition is a healthy and a normal part of business, this is fact that all dealers accept but you cannot wrap your head around as it seems it is firmly planted somewhere else.
BTW... how would you know exactly what is in any (if any) of my dealer agreements... speculation is not a good thing dude, especially if you want to take me on like this.
[ July 19, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: MR2NR ]
07-19-2005, 05:26 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
i think i will put my 2 cents with the guy that has been employed in the industry and a CAR AUDIO shop owner over a part time backyard installer, no offence dukk but your attemp at making a point semms to be pointless, it just seems to me that mr2nr has more experience by a long shot and has a far better insight on the industry and being a shop owner he no doubt has better insight in to his business and how etailing effects him directly
