AAAAAAA

iTrader: (7)

IMO don't put to much into amps for your "sound quality". What amp you choose is at the bottom of what affects the sound the most accept for power output... that is the only real spec to look at.

Here is what affects the sound the most

Environment
install (enclosures, aiming, tuning, ect)
source recording (not the deck but how the song was recorded)
speakers
amount of power
and everything else is equaly as unimportant after that.

The difference between 80 watts and 120 is almost inaudible and not worth sweting over. Looking a 80, for it to be worth it, you would have to go to around 150 or more to get a 3db -noticable- difference. 80 watts, especially active should be plenty. Plus you can always upgrade\change later, we all love to do it, systems are never done.

It's probably superior in every way using better-newer assembling techniques. But it is huge and a dinosaur and of course as mentioned before it won't sound any better or worse then other amps.

Basically everything else in the system matters more then what amp you choose hehe.

When it comes to electronics, every year everything gets better and smaller and more powerfull and efficient be it for computers, phones everything (amplifiers are certanly not an acceptio to this rule). I can't imagine still running old innificient sonicaly indistinguishable huge amps... there is no benefit.


Exactly.


Amps that are run at full power are similarly innificient regardless of class. Luckely amps don't usually run at max most of the time, only some times.

As for the gain, its possible to have it all the way down and get the maximum power out of your amp. The gain is there to match to the head unit output. But when the gains for your tweets are lower then your mids then they will get less power relative to yours mids.

No

IT's not about the gain setting because as mentioned before, an amp can still make full power even with gains at a minimum if the output voltage form your source is high enough. So Regardless of gain setting of volume setting the amp will sound just as good as long as it plays within it's comfort zone (not clipping or distorting).

Tweeters can take powa, don't worry about it ha! All us active folks know it.

It depends, what really matters is how YOU would be happyest. Give it a try and get some experience under your belt. It's the best way to know and gain knowledge. I have often tried what you say and it's a compromise. Usually midbase and dynamics are increadible when you get that much pwoer bridged... but it doesn't sound as balanced and usually as smooth as running it active. So.... powerfull and dynamic for perhaps harsher VS smoother but less loud and dynamic.

[/quote]

You ask good questions and have an open mind, it makes for great discussion.

Destarah

@ 33seven
I mentioned it because you listed the SS HR, it's 140w x 4 ...
Without getting too involved in a balance dicussion, 80w is enough power for them, but the real question becomes "Is 80w enough for you?" That being said, we fall back on the reality of the SS HR having 140W available on each of the 4 channels ... so ...
If space is an issue, the JL 300/4V2 is half the size and only $60 more.
Can anyone actually hear a difference? Will it fail to work for the same length of time? I would suggest the answer to both of those questions is No.
That has more to do with how hard you run the system. Just because a system is rated at 2kW doesn't necessarily mean you will ever draw that much.
The short answer is no.
I won't repeat Aaaaaaa's response to that, I will however add that the biggest factor regarding current draw is the musical content.
Nope.
Nope.
It's a misleading question, the mystery is "Will YOU be happier?" The speakers could care less which way they are wired. They will sound great either way.

@ Aaaaaaa
I disagree, that is a 50% increase in RMS power ... that would translate into a crapload of headroom available for midbass. It won't mean squat for the tweeters, but in the sub 200Hz region you absolutely would be able to hear the difference.

AAAAAAA

iTrader: (7)

You are saying that having am extra 1.x db it's a crap load of head room? 1db is at the fringe of audibility

Destarah

1.x dB is at the fringe of audibility? It represents a 50% increase in SPL ... since when is that considered inaudible? It's like you believe that because the dB measurement is small that somehow translates into a small real world output difference. The dB is used BECAUSE it represents large changes with small numbers.

AAAAAAA

iTrader: (7)

1DB is huge in competitions... but when talking about hearing it's a totally different subject.

Saying it represents a 50% increase in power is far different then 50% increase in SPL (which is what you are claiming).

Doubling SPL is 6DB and to do this you need 4 times the power. So 50% of that is 3DB so double the power.

To double loudness you need 10 times the power! (10DB increase)

50% more power translates to ruffly 1db… it’s really nothing in relationship to our hearing.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOf...sureLevels.htm

Destarah

woah, hang on a sec here. We seem to have deviated from a coherent conversation. Let's regroup.

I started by disagreeing with you that increasing the available power by 50% would make a noticeable difference, and you are posting dB gains like the Focals are sitting on a bench in a lab.

I was wrong to have said a 50% increase in power would provide a 50% increase in SPL, and I apologize for that.

However, he isn't running 1kHz 0dB leveled sine waves through his speakers, he is playing music. This is more about relative power levels then averaged output. At a given listening level the amp will use various amounts of power to produce various frequencies. Assuming we don't reach the mechanical limits of the driver, any time the 80W amp would have been saturated and clipped the 120W amp will gives us more volume.

The amp isn't going to clip playing the midrange frequencies, it will clip in the midbass range. We are talking about increasing the available power for lower frequencies. Our ears don't hear the midrange frequencies as being any louder, but the midbass frequencies are louder relative to the midrange because the amp is able to deliver more power for those notes without clipping.

The bottom line is that if he is never driving an 80W hard enough to clip, there will be zero difference recognized by providing more power. Conversely, if he is turning up the volume and only the higher range frequencies are getting louder, he has either reached the mechanical limit of his driver, or he is clipping the amp. We can safely assume that he won't reach the mechanical limits of a K2P 6.5 with 80W, therefore more power = more volume at lower frequencies. Again, it's about him getting more low frequency sound relative to the high frequencies, not about making everything louder.

Thoughts?

AAAAAAA

iTrader: (7)

No matter how you chop it up, it’s only about an extra 1 db at ALL frequencies. Can you keep over all volume the same and instead boost the low end that extra 1 db? Yeah sure .. will you hear it? 1 db is nothing.

But I always try and buy the amp with the most powa! Yeah!

Also tweeters are often not 4ohms but 6 or 8...there full cutting the amplifier power at those frequencies..so it is quite possible to clip the amp with the tweeters as well depending on the set.

Oh and I am sure it would be easy enough to reach x-max on those things with “only” 80 watts at 70-80 hertz and lower.

33seven

Ok guys.

For the K2Ps 6.5 comps, for a 4 channel active amp - what is the lowest power rating that is worth doing active - before I would be better off going passive with high power input?

65w x 4?
80w x 4?
100w x 4?

I know the more power I put to them the better... I get it.
What I'm feeling for is the trade off point. (obviously 200x2 passive will sound better than 40x4 active given what hogs the focal woofers are)

All of your suggestions are greatly appreciated.

The amps I am now looking at are:

500.00 - DLS RA40 (80x4 @4, 220x2 @4 bridged)
350.00 - ARC Audio XXK 4050 (50x4 @4, 180x2 @4 bridged)
450.00 - JL Audio 450/4 (150x2 + 75x2 @4)

I think the HRU.4 is out because that thing is just too bloody big. Unless someone can tell me without doubt that they are sonically every bit as good as the old ones.


Thanks guys!

33seven

************************************************** **************
And somehow I did not see all of those responses you guys made over the last 36hrs. Thank you both for all that great information.

I Doooo want my mids to hit HARD! I love midbass and I don't think the k2ps like being crossed lower than 80hz anyway, so I'd like to think they wont be reaching xmax.

If you guys have any other amps you think I should be looking at that meet the following criteria, I'm all ears!

*A/B class
*no longer than 13"
*enough output for the midbass drivers so I can feel it deep in my chest when they hit
*attainable for under 500.00 (350.00 used)
*IF POSSIBLE - something that will help tame the harsh tn52 tweeters. (maybe this is just a matter of tuning and making sure they get ample power)

Thanks guys!

Dukk

Truly I would have a hard look at the JL XD 600/6. 75x6 that you can configure 75x2 for the tweets and 150x2 for the mids. Lots of jam.

And don't fear Class D or T or whatever. I am seriously considering two of those same JL amps myself for my next system.