dogbaker

Moving Forward gents and ladies... Please post your question in my thread - ' Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design' and I will answer all of your questions there... This way I don't have to repeat as much etc...

Thanks

Good Start! Keep that Questions coming!

dogbaker

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The rate of electron flow isn't constant nor is equal to that of photons in a vacuum (AKA Light)... This isn’t my opinion it is scientific fact... I can understand how you may have come to believe you statements as being the truth, but you’re not even close to reality with your example...

Electrons when conducting say through copper, incur not only varying resistances, they also encounter inductance and capacitance and furthermore, these 3 quantities change by frequency and temperature – the more current you push the hotter they get and the resistance increases and the speed of electron flow increases... even the variations in the diameter of a single strain of copper affect a change, just like squeezing a garden hose will increase the rate at which water flows... – I am not saying that all these changes are always audible, but just that they occur and when you add them all up within a system – they are most definitely audible as time smears – another form of distortion... Plus signal loss and compression also occur which ad even more delays... No constants here – these can and do have an effect on your overall sound qualities... no question and not at hundreds of feet...

Now when we actually interconnect the amp and speaker these quantities marry and delays increase even more...

Once you exceed 8’ the delays become apparent to trained ears but measurement gear can observer them at an inch or two!

Here’s a test you can do at home!

Using your home stereo – it doesn’t have to be a good one... go out and buy say 50-feet of 16 gauge lamp wire – cut two eight foot pieces off and run them to your speakers etc, and listen to them for a couple of hours... then take the remaining 34’ and cut it into two 17’ pieces and side down and list to the same tracks – you will become instantly educated... but you must listen to the short ones first or you won’t know what is missing!

I could cite the math – I also have the gear to make such measurements with!

kevmurray

Wow, where to begin. Though you may have access to a network analyzer and are able to measure the differences in cables, it is just plain irresponsible to use this as "evidence" in the audio realm. Transmission line parameters are largely useless in the audio world as the frequency is not high enough to make any difference. While things like skin effect and LCR losses are measurable in the audible band, unless the cables are ridiculously long or light no one could hear the loss.

To say that the speaker cable's contribution to overall phase shift is "profound" is laughable. While the dielectric constant of speaker wire may not support transmission at light speed it is plenty fast enough to make path differences of over a hundred feet negligible in terms of phase. The resistive losses may be significant but to say that the phase shift is perceptible is a joke. Furthermore phase, group delay and other colourations "in the pico range" are swamped by the total system THD+N.

Your posts contain so much inflated evidence, exaggerated statements, and obvious elitism that I don't know why I even bothered to respond. Clearly I should be thankful you are here to school us.

BTW: The garden hose analogy was not mine.

Dukk

Are you ****ing kidding me? Oh man...

I have a better one. Go buy a 100foot spool of 16ga wire. Cut off 3 feet for one speaker and use the whole roll for the other side. See if you can hear a delay, or anything else for that matter, from side to side. No chance.

Donnie

That's awesome!!

I thought my garden hose analogy was good.

Dukk

^ It was good but sort of off the mark. To make it a relevent comparison to electron flow through wire you would have to have one hose a kilometer long and the other a kilometer + 1millimeter. Then from 200feet away tell which one produced water first.

My point being that the difference in length you could potentially wind up at in a house let alone a car is infinitesimally small compared to the transfer rate and that the measuring system (our ears) are just not precise enough to pick it up.

Other than that, awesome analogy

kevmurray

It's commonly used to describe the shift effect in introductory electricity courses. The more complex model of a bulging and stretching hose could be used to describe electron drift and transmission lines. I'll be sure to credit you if I use it

dogbaker

Keven

If your up to it...

I'll take each point to math - do you have and engineering degree, I ask because it will determine the completness of each moth model etc...

Also, please don't miss-quote me... I didn't say that time smears in cables are always audiable, but that sometimes they are, when you have a trained ear and know what is missing etc... I did say that they can be ojectively measure and are daily... Using gear beyond that of a traditionl cable network tester...

But what I did say that amplifiers, preamps and speaker - espically speakers produce very audiable time smears and when the enitr system is interconnect with cables the unify to produce a and average of time errors...

I know I typed a lot, but it's important that if you're going to attack me on a point - that it be a point that I actually made.

This is the second time that you have miss-quoted or miss-understood the context of my comments...

Anyway - if I put forth the effort, will you still argue the math?

Oh by the way - I almost missed your reply - please reply to me in my tread - I won't becoming back here.. Thanks

dogbaker

Guys you are so @#$%ing wrong!

I could point it out to you using just your ears - once you note it - you will develop OCD and never miss it again... any ways

I am going to take this to math - good luck refuting that!

Bring it on smart guy's - out of all this a few will see the truth and this forum will start to grow...

Donnie

Believe me, I wasn't trying to be condescending. As a new member I don't have a fix on each member and their knowledge of a particular area, that's why I didn't want to carry on and risk enraging the good people that make up this forum. My qualifications are based on years in the military and working in communications. I've since moved on to forensics, so my qualifications are questionable as much of the knowledge has drifted away. I know a lot about the cables from both a signal perspective (practical measurements) and from a theoretical perspective. Much more practically speaking, I've been into hi-fi for many, many years and as the husband of someone in audiology, I've got good ears and can absolutely hear differences where they exist.

That said, its an interesting discussion and I can appreciate the different opinions. I simply try to listen where I can and educate to the broadest of audiences. You guys here certainly know your stuff, so its time for me to just enjoy the company.