Midbase help
01-23-2009, 10:38 AM
#1
Midbase help
While we are talking a lot about midbase lately I figured I would try and get some tips from some guys on here.
My problem is that it seems my kick pod 5 1\4's just work better then the 8's I have tried in my door.
So far I have had the dayton RS 8inch and currently there are the 8inch SLS from peerless.
The door is deadened and I have closed off all the openings in the door. In both cases the mids are getting around 100 watts and the comp set are getting 50.
I have tried xovering the midbases from 80 to 60, +-200 to 80 and it just never sounds as punchy and detailed as when I have the PRS 5 1\4's xovered at 80hz.
Any ideas you guys could suggest I try install wise or tuning? I am running all active with the H701.
If not I am just going to stick with 2 way + sub.
My problem is that it seems my kick pod 5 1\4's just work better then the 8's I have tried in my door.
So far I have had the dayton RS 8inch and currently there are the 8inch SLS from peerless.
The door is deadened and I have closed off all the openings in the door. In both cases the mids are getting around 100 watts and the comp set are getting 50.
I have tried xovering the midbases from 80 to 60, +-200 to 80 and it just never sounds as punchy and detailed as when I have the PRS 5 1\4's xovered at 80hz.
Any ideas you guys could suggest I try install wise or tuning? I am running all active with the H701.
If not I am just going to stick with 2 way + sub.
01-23-2009, 11:52 AM
#3
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 429
If u are ever local I could help you to try and tune it. I Also really like the Hybrid Audio
L8. I have used this driver in two newer installs I built and it is awesome. I put a pair in the corvette that was on Display my IASCA Ontario Finals show in Peterborough. Many people who listened to Vette could not believe there was no sub in the car. The midbass was very tight and detailed even while being played at full volume! Lots of sound deadning helped...LOL
L8. I have used this driver in two newer installs I built and it is awesome. I put a pair in the corvette that was on Display my IASCA Ontario Finals show in Peterborough. Many people who listened to Vette could not believe there was no sub in the car. The midbass was very tight and detailed even while being played at full volume! Lots of sound deadning helped...LOL
01-23-2009, 12:18 PM
#4
That is a nice offer. I live right next to Ottawa. You must be around the Toronto area I imagine.
My problem isn't them not going low enough and even less now that I am using subs. I have gone subless for a couple of years. It is the "snap" so to speak that I want and it is better (snapier\punchier and more realistic) with the comps playing that range then the 8's.
My problem isn't them not going low enough and even less now that I am using subs. I have gone subless for a couple of years. It is the "snap" so to speak that I want and it is better (snapier\punchier and more realistic) with the comps playing that range then the 8's.
01-23-2009, 02:17 PM
#5
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 429
YEs I live east of toronto, near Oshawa! If your in Montreal Alex Dahan would be a good to track down to give you a hand!
With your midbass problem: It looks like you want really strong upper midbass typically in the 160 Hz range. Now this will depend on what driver you are using plus how good the dampning factor of your amp is. Smaller MB drivers usually do have more snap to then larger MB drivers. Most of this is due to mass of the cone and the control your amp has over the driver. MB is very tricky to tune and it takes alot of time to get it just right. Another factor is the drivers requirments when it comes to airspace needed.
The L8's in the vette are very snappy considering the amount of low output they produce. The reason for this is simple. They dont need a box of any type to sound good. Sound deaden your door , drop them in and let them go.
With your midbass problem: It looks like you want really strong upper midbass typically in the 160 Hz range. Now this will depend on what driver you are using plus how good the dampning factor of your amp is. Smaller MB drivers usually do have more snap to then larger MB drivers. Most of this is due to mass of the cone and the control your amp has over the driver. MB is very tricky to tune and it takes alot of time to get it just right. Another factor is the drivers requirments when it comes to airspace needed.
The L8's in the vette are very snappy considering the amount of low output they produce. The reason for this is simple. They dont need a box of any type to sound good. Sound deaden your door , drop them in and let them go.
01-23-2009, 02:38 PM
#6
Just MHO of course, but I have found that "snap" comes from lower midrange / upper midbass (as mentioned by Jason) but the attack and decay of it comes primarily from the midrange.
not sure if you're running two or three way front, but also work on the lower midrange to try and achieve this. (this worked for me)
this would also explain why the 5.25's were doing it "better" than the 8's, I just think you're blaming the wrong speaker.
also, if the door flexes or rattles or any of that other good stuff that's lost energy which could just be taking the snap out of things.
play with the crossover, try 100hz highpass with a 12db slope and lowpass of 200hz (just starting points of course)
but also play with your lower midrange (that's where I found more snap)(EQ)
keep in mind the basic fundamentals for your average "kick" is 50hz to 500hz, note more of that range is in your midrange than your midbass region.
oh, and try more power (careful) if you can do so free
worth a shot to try these free things first.
but also agreed with Jason in that the L8 is a very nice midbass driver
not sure if you're running two or three way front, but also work on the lower midrange to try and achieve this. (this worked for me)
this would also explain why the 5.25's were doing it "better" than the 8's, I just think you're blaming the wrong speaker.
also, if the door flexes or rattles or any of that other good stuff that's lost energy which could just be taking the snap out of things.
play with the crossover, try 100hz highpass with a 12db slope and lowpass of 200hz (just starting points of course)
but also play with your lower midrange (that's where I found more snap)(EQ)
keep in mind the basic fundamentals for your average "kick" is 50hz to 500hz, note more of that range is in your midrange than your midbass region.
oh, and try more power (careful) if you can do so free
worth a shot to try these free things first.
but also agreed with Jason in that the L8 is a very nice midbass driver
01-23-2009, 03:01 PM
#7
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 429
MTT.
Good advice. If your like me and cross over your MR very low 200-250 hz then this speaker could infact play the freq that assist with snap depending on the slope you are using, in the MB area. I like keeping the xover point low on the MR to help keep the staging and imaging better. It helps alot especially with male voices, bass guitar, organ etc. You get alot less frequency dependent movement and freq steering with your staging. But thats another topic...LOL
With MB I normally have the following xover points 40-50hz to 200-320hz.
Also good advice with sound deadning. THis is very important and if done right will improve the sonic abilty of any speaker.
Good advice. If your like me and cross over your MR very low 200-250 hz then this speaker could infact play the freq that assist with snap depending on the slope you are using, in the MB area. I like keeping the xover point low on the MR to help keep the staging and imaging better. It helps alot especially with male voices, bass guitar, organ etc. You get alot less frequency dependent movement and freq steering with your staging. But thats another topic...LOL
With MB I normally have the following xover points 40-50hz to 200-320hz.
Also good advice with sound deadning. THis is very important and if done right will improve the sonic abilty of any speaker.
01-23-2009, 03:09 PM
#8
MTT.
Good advice. If your like me and cross over your MR very low 200-250 hz then this speaker could infact play the freq that assist with snap depending on the slope you are using, in the MB area. I like keeping the xover point low on the MR to help keep the staging and imaging better. It helps alot especially with male voices, bass guitar, organ etc. You get alot less frequency dependent movement and freq steering with your staging. But thats another topic...LOL
With MB I normally have the following xover points 40-50hz to 200-320hz.
Also good advice with sound deadning. THis is very important and if done right will improve the sonic abilty of any speaker.
Good advice. If your like me and cross over your MR very low 200-250 hz then this speaker could infact play the freq that assist with snap depending on the slope you are using, in the MB area. I like keeping the xover point low on the MR to help keep the staging and imaging better. It helps alot especially with male voices, bass guitar, organ etc. You get alot less frequency dependent movement and freq steering with your staging. But thats another topic...LOL
With MB I normally have the following xover points 40-50hz to 200-320hz.
Also good advice with sound deadning. THis is very important and if done right will improve the sonic abilty of any speaker.
I was recommending the higher "high pass" to eliminate the possibility of it being transfer function creating a rise in the 50-60 hz region (muddying things up)...it's one way checking it out without the use of an RTA.
if there's a boost of any kind coming from wherever in that region it could be killing it for him.
EDIT: not sure what you have in the way of processing or what you're tried and I hope I'm not insulting you by mentioning that you might want to try playing around with phase???
Last edited by MTT; 01-23-2009 at 03:19 PM.
01-23-2009, 04:33 PM
#9
Here is some more info, and I don't feel insulted at all no worries, thanks for all the help and suggestions, it is 3 way front using the H701.
Sealed kicks PRS 5 1\4 inch
Tweets are part of the PRS comp set
Doors, F\G was used to cover the holes before the mat went on. A couple of layers of dampening on the inside as well. I have the egg crate foam behind the driver.
I have the SLS in there now that is ideal, appenretly, for IB. It seems like it to modeling it in bassbox.
I have tried flipping phase and it helps when there is no T\a, but once T\A is setup phase doesn't seem to be a problem, everything in phase sounds more focused.
I do have an RTA, anything I should be looking for?
I did some more listening, switching between having the midbase play and it being disabled and having the comp set play midbase. Sometimes I can't tell that the 8's are disabled, other times they offer a lot more impact. It does seem like the problem might have to do with to much base at some frequencies. I guess I should have a look at the response.
I also like having the MR go to about 200 to 300 for reasons mentioned above and that my 8 can't go any higher then 300 without quality degrading. I am having, I am not sure what to call it, perhaps it is phase or cancelation issue, but around the 300 range it doesn't sound right at all, I can pin point it with test tones. I am not to sure how to go about fixing it. I can help it by EQing it so it sounds more level. Maybe I need to try different slopes...
I do think a lot of it is do to my lack of experience in tuning for sure. I am considering removing the 8 and putting in a 10inch I have from a previous component set (canton).
I wil try and focus on the midrange see if that can help and have a look at what the RTA has to say.
I won't switch to another 8 as the SLS and the previous dayton's have had great reviews just like the HAT8. Hopefull I can get it working.
And I was thinking of more power but it is not an option right now.
Sealed kicks PRS 5 1\4 inch
Tweets are part of the PRS comp set
Doors, F\G was used to cover the holes before the mat went on. A couple of layers of dampening on the inside as well. I have the egg crate foam behind the driver.
I have the SLS in there now that is ideal, appenretly, for IB. It seems like it to modeling it in bassbox.
I have tried flipping phase and it helps when there is no T\a, but once T\A is setup phase doesn't seem to be a problem, everything in phase sounds more focused.
I do have an RTA, anything I should be looking for?
I did some more listening, switching between having the midbase play and it being disabled and having the comp set play midbase. Sometimes I can't tell that the 8's are disabled, other times they offer a lot more impact. It does seem like the problem might have to do with to much base at some frequencies. I guess I should have a look at the response.
I also like having the MR go to about 200 to 300 for reasons mentioned above and that my 8 can't go any higher then 300 without quality degrading. I am having, I am not sure what to call it, perhaps it is phase or cancelation issue, but around the 300 range it doesn't sound right at all, I can pin point it with test tones. I am not to sure how to go about fixing it. I can help it by EQing it so it sounds more level. Maybe I need to try different slopes...
I do think a lot of it is do to my lack of experience in tuning for sure. I am considering removing the 8 and putting in a 10inch I have from a previous component set (canton).
I wil try and focus on the midrange see if that can help and have a look at what the RTA has to say.
I won't switch to another 8 as the SLS and the previous dayton's have had great reviews just like the HAT8. Hopefull I can get it working.
And I was thinking of more power but it is not an option right now.
