Research is almost done subwoofer/enclosure suggestions
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 206
thats the design, but why would you want to cut your rear deck, when you can do the same thing by pulling your rear seat down when doing a sq show. For daily driving leave it up. You have enough power to be heard.
Plus it that case, you have built a complete box minus the top so you have't saved any space or weigth.
What I'm talking about is a single baffle behind the rear seat (area on the pic above is the black angled line that has interior beside it.) and seal up the factory holes. This way you CAN resell the car, and don't need to re-weld in a new rear deck.
Trust me you'll notice the weight when driving a g35......and you'll hate it
Plus it that case, you have built a complete box minus the top so you have't saved any space or weigth.
What I'm talking about is a single baffle behind the rear seat (area on the pic above is the black angled line that has interior beside it.) and seal up the factory holes. This way you CAN resell the car, and don't need to re-weld in a new rear deck.
Trust me you'll notice the weight when driving a g35......and you'll hate it
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 128
Hi PitBully, my apologies if it appears I am hijacking your thread, but I thought posting my question here would help others since it is very similar to what your question is regarding sub placement. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Hey Jamie,
How would you recommend I install my subs (assuming I figure out what to get someday!)? In my car, the back seat rest does not come down. There is a hole in the deck for the OEM 8 inch sub.
Someone who has worked on my model of car (installing competition class audio systems) recommended that based on the accoustics of my car that the subs be installed in the corners of the trunk (where the rear lights are).
What are your thoughts on that?
For example if you look at the Focal Access 27 Lux sub - it already comes with an enclosure - http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/car/accessline/27lux.htm . Is that a good choice for this scenario?
[ January 15, 2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: SilverGS ]
Hey Jamie,
How would you recommend I install my subs (assuming I figure out what to get someday!)? In my car, the back seat rest does not come down. There is a hole in the deck for the OEM 8 inch sub.
Someone who has worked on my model of car (installing competition class audio systems) recommended that based on the accoustics of my car that the subs be installed in the corners of the trunk (where the rear lights are).
What are your thoughts on that?
For example if you look at the Focal Access 27 Lux sub - it already comes with an enclosure - http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/car/accessline/27lux.htm . Is that a good choice for this scenario?
[ January 15, 2005, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: SilverGS ]
Thread Starter
0 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 43
The reason why I was thinking of doing it that way was to keep the 6x9 opening and not pull the seats down. I guess then I wouldnt get the full sound of the bass eh?
SilverGS I would assume jamie would tell you to do the same as me. Run IB make the whole bigger (if you can or want to) and place a 10 or 12 in the deck. If not I believe Jamie was informing me I would lose a lot of SQ bass being in the trunk.
SilverGS I would assume jamie would tell you to do the same as me. Run IB make the whole bigger (if you can or want to) and place a 10 or 12 in the deck. If not I believe Jamie was informing me I would lose a lot of SQ bass being in the trunk.
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 429
I've been doing my subbass IB for many years and I'll never go back. The bass reproduction is very accurate and because my subs are mounted on my rear deck of my jetta, the subbass does not have to fight through a backseat nor a rear deck. I also have 2 - 15's which play the lower notes very well. Going IB can sound VERY good (I am very happy with my sub setup), be very lightweight (no subbox) and also get very loud (as my car can if need be).
I second what Jamie has said, go IB!
[ January 15, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: MB ]
I second what Jamie has said, go IB!
[ January 15, 2005, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: MB ]
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 206
In your both cases (baised on your input) I would build a baffle under the rear deck., Deadner the snot out of it, and remove the 6X9's or 8 inch sub. The sub drivers then play through these openings.
It will work very well.
As far as mounting driver way the heck on the back, forget it. it will work but you'll have a bunch of tuning issues (i've been thier on many occasion). I can out perform you in the above method than you could in the truck corners for a few reasons.
1: The rear deck gives your drivers less airspace to play (the passenger compartment) into. Small place to play into will give it louder results. , example look at the SPL cars they don't put thier subs on the rear doors of thier astro vans.
2: Loaded againts the rear window will give you a sligth loading effect.
but then again......its your cars and everyone has a different method of doing things
It will work very well.
As far as mounting driver way the heck on the back, forget it. it will work but you'll have a bunch of tuning issues (i've been thier on many occasion). I can out perform you in the above method than you could in the truck corners for a few reasons.
1: The rear deck gives your drivers less airspace to play (the passenger compartment) into. Small place to play into will give it louder results. , example look at the SPL cars they don't put thier subs on the rear doors of thier astro vans.
2: Loaded againts the rear window will give you a sligth loading effect.
but then again......its your cars and everyone has a different method of doing things
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 128
Originally posted by Impala Builder:
In your both cases (baised on your input) I would build a baffle under the rear deck., Deadner the snot out of it, and remove the 6X9's or 8 inch sub. The sub drivers then play through these openings.
It will work very well.
In your both cases (baised on your input) I would build a baffle under the rear deck., Deadner the snot out of it, and remove the 6X9's or 8 inch sub. The sub drivers then play through these openings.
It will work very well.
1. Do you recommend I make holes in the rear deck for the new subs? (on either side of the rear deck)?
2. And close up the center opening that already exists?
3. When you say build a baffle - you mean build some support that will go up against the rear deck that the subs will attach to? Please clarify this point for me.
As far as mounting driver way the heck on the back, forget it. it will work but you'll have a bunch of tuning issues (i've been thier on many occasion). I can out perform you in the above method than you could in the truck corners for a few reasons.
1: The rear deck gives your drivers less airspace to play (the passenger compartment) into. Small place to play into will give it louder results. , example look at the SPL cars they don't put thier subs on the rear doors of thier astro vans.
2: Loaded againts the rear window will give you a sligth loading effect.
I have also noticed that you consistently recommend a pair of 15's and not 12's.
4. Can you please explain to me your rationale for that? (I am trying to learn as much as I can so that I don't regret my decisions later).
5. Approximately how much do your DLS SP15's weigh? I noticed on DLS's website that your particular subs are geared more towards SPL. I find that confusing as I would have thought your speakers should be more SQ focussed. Please explain why you have those particular subs in your SQ focussed audio system. Thanks!
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 206
GS:
1: No use that original sub hole, you won't need to cut the rear deck (unless you want to...I did)
2: A baffle is what the speaker mount to. The front of a sub box is a baffle.
3: The 15's in the rear deck of my car were purposly built for SPL. They were not on for any shows in 2004 (not even wired) Due to some comments from judges at the 2004 IASCA finals I now have them used for only low sub bass. Low as in they have a 30hz 24d/oct low pass x-over. just to play the 18 hz that the judges from england claim was not thier (don't get me started). So depending on who is in the car depends on if they are on or not
Now I have played with the 15's in the rear as the only playing subs in the car, and It works. But i find that it doesn't work as good as the front sub for up front bass. The main culprit for this is that the backs of the front seats move with bass hits and that gives you the idea that the subs are in back. The has a ton of deadning (see the b-quiet site for pics)so no other panles are resonating.
Why's 15's, or 12's ?......
Here's MY opinion on subs
Example:
Assume same amps, and optimal mounting, enclosure ect.....
Two subs have the exact same response curve, and exact same spec's ,as in same modle of driver. One is an 8, one is a 15.
Both subs at about 30 hz have a 12db/oct low pass drop. IE at 30hz the amount of output drops alot.
Now the 15 has the ability to move more air due to its surface displacment (bigger cone area) than the 8, so by theory the 15, and 8 play the same freq's, but the 15 plays louder.
So what this means is that a 20hz note at the same amp power, tuning ect will put out lets say 100db of that freq. Due to the 15 having over 3 times the cone area it will play louder. So that 20hz note will be louder.....thus you will be able to hear it more than the 8 inch sub .Now this is not a pure science as all SPL guys will tell you, but in theory is true.
Plus when you start to get really low, it's all about how much air you can move, because it starts to be below your hearing, and turns more into
So after all this BS above the reason is because......it has the ability to play louder across it freq range. I'm not talking 160db louder, I'm talking under 105db capability to play those low freq's.
I hear you now "but you have a ten in the dash"
Yes I do,and you don't know how many hours i burned trying to get a 12 in thier,and look stock, however the xmax of that 10 inch driver is awesome, thus it can move more air.....see where i'm going here........move more air across the required freq range.
So here's the question of the day:
To get more air movement you need more displacement. So thier are two ways to get it.
1: Big cone area
or
2; Large cone movement.
Problem with the balance of the sub woofer
If you have a large cone it needs to be strong to avoid warping, thus it needs to be stiff, and strong which usually means.....heavy.
If you have a smaller cone that moves alot (to give you more output)it again needs to be strong to aviod warping, thu sit needs to be stiff, and strong which usually means.....heavy.
Which then requires more power to move it, which adds more weigth to the driver. and so on and so on.
Whats the big deal with weigth. It makes the cone harder to start and stop moving making it have less ability to accuratly reproduce the signal fedd to it. so you add stronger magnets, and stiffer suspension, which.......adds weigth and makes it ?....hard to move, so you add more power.......
So which came first the chicken or the egg.Speaker designers come to apoint of give and take. Where they loose in some areas they gain in others
You will notice that in the high end audio market where drivers cost an arm and a leg are usually large subs, that take little power. They have accepted the lower output, but consistant responce across the audio spectrum. The car audio market tends to lean toward the High output in a limited bandwidth approch.
The other reason I use larger drivers on sub bass.........it looks cooler
Have you fallen asleep yet..........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
1: No use that original sub hole, you won't need to cut the rear deck (unless you want to...I did)
2: A baffle is what the speaker mount to. The front of a sub box is a baffle.
3: The 15's in the rear deck of my car were purposly built for SPL. They were not on for any shows in 2004 (not even wired) Due to some comments from judges at the 2004 IASCA finals I now have them used for only low sub bass. Low as in they have a 30hz 24d/oct low pass x-over. just to play the 18 hz that the judges from england claim was not thier (don't get me started). So depending on who is in the car depends on if they are on or not
Now I have played with the 15's in the rear as the only playing subs in the car, and It works. But i find that it doesn't work as good as the front sub for up front bass. The main culprit for this is that the backs of the front seats move with bass hits and that gives you the idea that the subs are in back. The has a ton of deadning (see the b-quiet site for pics)so no other panles are resonating.
Why's 15's, or 12's ?......
Here's MY opinion on subs
Example:
Assume same amps, and optimal mounting, enclosure ect.....
Two subs have the exact same response curve, and exact same spec's ,as in same modle of driver. One is an 8, one is a 15.
Both subs at about 30 hz have a 12db/oct low pass drop. IE at 30hz the amount of output drops alot.
Now the 15 has the ability to move more air due to its surface displacment (bigger cone area) than the 8, so by theory the 15, and 8 play the same freq's, but the 15 plays louder.
So what this means is that a 20hz note at the same amp power, tuning ect will put out lets say 100db of that freq. Due to the 15 having over 3 times the cone area it will play louder. So that 20hz note will be louder.....thus you will be able to hear it more than the 8 inch sub .Now this is not a pure science as all SPL guys will tell you, but in theory is true.
Plus when you start to get really low, it's all about how much air you can move, because it starts to be below your hearing, and turns more into
So after all this BS above the reason is because......it has the ability to play louder across it freq range. I'm not talking 160db louder, I'm talking under 105db capability to play those low freq's.
I hear you now "but you have a ten in the dash"
Yes I do,and you don't know how many hours i burned trying to get a 12 in thier,and look stock, however the xmax of that 10 inch driver is awesome, thus it can move more air.....see where i'm going here........move more air across the required freq range.
So here's the question of the day:
To get more air movement you need more displacement. So thier are two ways to get it.
1: Big cone area
or
2; Large cone movement.
Problem with the balance of the sub woofer
If you have a large cone it needs to be strong to avoid warping, thus it needs to be stiff, and strong which usually means.....heavy.
If you have a smaller cone that moves alot (to give you more output)it again needs to be strong to aviod warping, thu sit needs to be stiff, and strong which usually means.....heavy.
Which then requires more power to move it, which adds more weigth to the driver. and so on and so on.
Whats the big deal with weigth. It makes the cone harder to start and stop moving making it have less ability to accuratly reproduce the signal fedd to it. so you add stronger magnets, and stiffer suspension, which.......adds weigth and makes it ?....hard to move, so you add more power.......
So which came first the chicken or the egg.Speaker designers come to apoint of give and take. Where they loose in some areas they gain in others
You will notice that in the high end audio market where drivers cost an arm and a leg are usually large subs, that take little power. They have accepted the lower output, but consistant responce across the audio spectrum. The car audio market tends to lean toward the High output in a limited bandwidth approch.
The other reason I use larger drivers on sub bass.........it looks cooler
Have you fallen asleep yet..........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 146
Originally posted by Impala Builder:
Whats the big deal with weigth. It makes the cone harder to start and stop moving making it have less ability to accuratly reproduce the signal fedd to it. so you add stronger magnets, and stiffer suspension, which.......adds weigth and makes it ?....hard to move, so you add more power.......
Whats the big deal with weigth. It makes the cone harder to start and stop moving making it have less ability to accuratly reproduce the signal fedd to it. so you add stronger magnets, and stiffer suspension, which.......adds weigth and makes it ?....hard to move, so you add more power.......
In the 'high end audio market' people are looking for efficiency over most anything else...
