Hey guys, new around here and have a question. right now I have a set of Focal Utopia 165w3's passively crossed in my civic. I have them running of a JL 300/2 currently; but to go active that won't work. Currently I am undecided on an amp for them... I would like to stick with JL as the rest of my amps are JL, but it's not absolute.

Thanks for the help guys, Regards.

Like butter is to toast, someone will recommend Audison for your Focals. It's not a requirement though. Do you like your JL amps? If you have no issue with them, then use another one for your Focals. Creates a nice overall look too having the same amps in a system. I haven't heard anything really negative about JL amps so I don't think you'll be missing out in audio nirvana by simply not using something other than a JL.

it's not so much that I was looking for am brad of amp, rather what power rating, and # of ch. I would need. I was hoping that someone had experience with the Focal Utopia 3 way set, and could let me know how much power they were pushing to each speaker, so that I could use that as a refernce.

regards.

If you want it to be active, you will need 3 pairs of channels for your 3-way set. You already have a 300/2, so you need 4 more chanels of power. As for how much power, buy as much as you can afford. Seriously. Having a lot of power on your front end is a good thing. It's an excellent amount of control as well. You don't HAVE to use all the power, but having it there is better than not. Your speakers will thank you for it.

ok cool. so another 4 ch. amp would to the trick then, so maybe the 300.4, coupled with the 300/2?

regards,

just as a side note, I listen to clasic rock, Live performances and metal. No rap whatsoever; could you guys recommend a starting point as far as cross-over points go... I would really appreciate it.

regards.

Just to throw some fuel on the constant Niwranski anti-focal-anti-audison fire..(for that matter the mentality of anything that's too popular must be hype syndrome)... in all FAIRNESS you could use a six channel Audison, cheaper than two JL's and would take up a lot less real estate especially in a bigger install...maybe check out the LRx 6.SR or if you already have processing and don't need all the filters there is the LRx 6.SR Direct for even less $$$

The LRx line is quite affordable actually!
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Having some fun & JK Dukk and SUX... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Adam wanna join in ?? :D

^^^^Sure!!!!!

I have at one time used a set of Focal Utopia 165W3s that were actively crossed over.

Power:
Tweeters - 130 watts(available but not being used)
Midranges - 130 watts
Midbasses - 250 watts

Cross overs:
Tweeters - High Pass=6khz @ 24db/oct.
Midranges - High Pass = 225hz @ 30db/oct.
Low Pass = 4.5Khz @ 18db/oct.
Midbasses - High Pass = 44hz @ 30db/oct.
Low Pass = 225hz @ 30 db/oct.

You will note the above cross over points have different slopes listed.(Ie. 18,24,30 db/oct.) It's what sounded best in my car. I have tried using all 24db/oct. slopes on all points and it worked very well....I'm just picky...

For amplification, and possibly a processor, I'm going to recommend something I feel very strongly about.

Find a dealer that listens to you, and is willing to help you learn more about your system. The brand of amplifier and/or active cross-over that they sell, will be what they can help you best with.

I'm currently biased towards DLS and TRU products though. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Have fun,

Adam

now we just need defro in the mix hehe.

passive crossovers in car audio = satan
active crossovers in car audio = not satan

of the amps you mentioned and everyone else mentioned, when set up correctly, satan should not appear from the holy depths of hell to assist in destroying your sonic nirvana

FOCAL AND AUDISON ARE OF THE DEVIL!!!! A FULL ALPINE F#1 SYSTEM WILL FIX ALL THE PROBLEMS IN YOUR LIFE!!

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Heehee that makes me chuckle.

^ lol - Dave, you and I should build a pair of cars on a budget one day. Say 2grand retail or so. You can go all active and I'll go all passive [img]smile.gif[/img]

and HEY - I never bashed either brand so blah. One of my best friends is a Karz rep and I am am well aquainted with Phil too [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

um, Adam - I...thought... you had your previous gear because it was "the best you could get". Are you opining differently now? [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

anytime dukk, anytime, i can easily go all active for 2 grand retail, you will have made 10 sets of 3 way passives(assuming 3 way unless your passive system will be 2 way) to get it right, all the while i'll be drivin down the road enjoyin my tunes. give me an alpine deck with 3 way electronic, or a couple 2xs's anyday, when can we get started

although i kind of dislike budgetary restraints, i think it would be fun

[ May 20, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: defro13 ]

haha satan, was that post powered by crest dave?

Dukk, raw equipment wise my opinion has changed. From when I originally purchased my Focal/Audison gear, there have been new products introduced to the Canadian market that easily eclipse the performance potential of my old stuff. I say "potential", because a great dealer capitalizes on this with a great install, and a poor dealer makes the price and expected performance a liability.

But more importantly, my understanding of value has changed. Putting the same effort I've put into my ultra high system, would probably result in equal or better sound with a less complicated setup. The one exception to this is in dynamic output, where it gets really pricey to sound good too.(which is exactly what I was messing around with)

From the average buyer's perspective, I feel people aren't getting the most out of what they already own. Some dealers are going to be able to help optimize whatever installation is in a customers car without any equipment being purchased. Those are the shops that I feel are worth buying from, regardless of what brand is being represented.

As some of you know, I've taken on a job in the industry that has me directly linked to some brands. I wouldn't have moved in this direction with regard to equipment and working relationships unless I honestly felt the products and people were first class.I have a passion for high end gear, that hasn't changed.

And yes Dukk, the new stuff is even MORE expensive. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Adam

I have an active system underway with a pair of 6s in each door, and two pairs of tweets.
I haven't much experience with active setups.
The 6s are gonna get about 115 watts each, in ported enclosures....how much will be too much for the tweets?
I was planning on sending them about 40 watts each at 2 ohms ,but I could step up to 80?
I'm already way over budget on this one, but I could upgrade to a 4 ch amp, and run the tweets at 4 ohms with 50 each, or go to a bigger 2 ch amp at 2 ohms.
???
Thinking that the 4 ch might be the way to go.....seperate gains, as a pair of tweets on the dash, and a pair in the kicks, or wherever sounds good.

Sorry for hijackin' the thread.

[ May 20, 2005, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Car Trek ]

pei, still using the pxah900?

Dave, you shouldn't even have to ask.

It's in my will.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

thought so

Adam - while you may, I don't care what your gear is worth. In my years I have found some products worthy of 5x their retail price and others that were quite the opposite as well. In my experience dollars don't necessarily equal quality and it certainly is not a linear scale.


You speak of value and performance. I hope you get at least one.

^^^Me too.

...and I agree with your first paragraph.

The only intrinsic value car audio gear imparts is the enjoyment of music IMO. Everything else is ego related.

I'll admit to being intoxicated by both.

Adam

I just finished putting together a little Impreza to go down to the IAS show in New Jersey. A simple three-way system. 6 and tweet in the doors, and a pair of fifteens where the back seats used to be. A pair of two channels bridged on the woofers and a four-channel on the front end, all active off the deck.

Awesome. I'd take active filtering any day.

Note 2 - Having directly compared active vs passive filtering with the same crossover points, you loose about 3dB of output with the passives - this cuts your systems current consumption in half for the same output level - important since most people don't know how to size power and ground cables properly.

Note 3 - Focal speakers are awesome. I basically get giddy when a set shows up at the lab to review - I have yet to be dissapointed. BUT, they must be operated within the frequency range they were designed for. The midranges go funny on the top end if you push them too far.

That being said, I am just completing a speaker project that uses a similar expanded foam core and fiber top layer, and I am experiencing the same problem - so, it's the nature of the beasty.

What I've found (as others have I'm sure) is that with dedicated amplification in actively divided networks it is possible to get a more dynamic result with given amplification since the amp can work very efficiently by only focussing on the specific task (or frequency set) it is given, especially with mid-high frequencies.

Also, it would seem the amp has an easier time controlling the speaker (causing the speaker to more accurately follow the waveform) when the amount of drivers hooked up to the amp is kept to a minimum. I'd like to try and give each driver it's own powersupply by-way-of bridging an amp to each driver just to see the difference in dynamics & headroom.

Oh Dukk.... with all due respect, this gear u speak of giving 5x performance to price ratio...

Care to give us a list of this stuff (specific model #'s etc) ???

[ May 21, 2005, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: islandphile ]

Is there a rule as to what percentage of power goes to each component? Obviously it will vary as the x-over points and driver efficiency change, but is there a starting point?
Most power ratings for tweeters seem to be quite high, and I assume when they say "100 watts" they're assuming that you'll be using their passive x-over.

With a fully active setup running a tweeter low to lets say 2.5khz, it will be lucky to see anything over 20 watts. Most of the time, a tweeter sees around 5 watts of power with moderate volumes. People, including myself, massively overpower tweeters.

The acoustic spikes generated by applying 100 or more watts to a tweeter DO NOT occure in music naturally. This is usually a lab scenario with either sine wave or pink noise bursts.

About a year and a half ago, there were some very good discussions on this forum about the differences between active and passive filtering.

Personally, I prefer active filtering done in the digital domain before the source signal is EVER converted by a D/A converter to analogue.

Adam

pei, your last paragraph, i couldnt agree more

islandphile, i too would like to see dukk's 5x's list

Defro doesn't Alpine have a DVD-Audio head unit coming out in the fall with all processing done in the digital domain b/f D/A conversion?

I'll have a look....

yess the new f#1 will be dvd audio, that will be the upgrade in my car when it becomes available

What an interesting thread...

I would venture that I know of a certain tweeter found in speakers costing from $100/pr. up to $20,000/pr. and another tweeter in speakers costing from $700 pr. up to $40,000/pr. (all prices US retail) I am not a math wiz; however, I think that is greater than 5x.

I would also venture to say that I must box to the concept of active filtering -- an automobile is a difficult environment to tame.

As far as Adam's change in gear -- I think he is playing in a bigger sandbox than many of us and is chasing a much more lofty goal, which requires superior equipment to acheive than "nice tunes". ;)

I have the Alpine DVI-9990, PXI-H990 and TMI-M990 sitting here in the lab.

They are all "real perty lookin".


The 9990 will play DVD-Audio

Pant-pant-pant ...drooool [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img]

How can u just come out and torture us like that D-Mac??? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

What will u use for reference material for DVD-Audio???

[ May 21, 2005, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: islandphile ]

Mikko and Dave - why? It doesn't accomplish anything for me to suggest what products I feel are killer bargains. In the same way it accomplishes nothing for me to suggest what products I feel are grossly overpriced - aside from offending a few members on the board [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

As I have opined in the past: active is easy, quick, mindless but IMO an all passive system can accomplish the same goal and has a certain charm that possibly only tube amp and phonograph fans can relate to.

an active system is far from mindless, it fact, taking a huge amount of more time to maybe achieve something close to a good active system, seems mindless to me [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

as for your good value products, im noit to sure what it is that bothers you about talking about them, but whatever floats your boat, i guess. i think we wanted to know more for the purpose of hearing your thoughts rather that to laff at. i guess your incredible value products will forever be shrouded in mystery. then again the value of a product is based on the person placing that value, one mans jewel, another mans junk

I did say "With all due R-E-S-P-E-C-T" Paul, that refers to the fact that I and surely many here value your opinions and years of fooling around with this stuff....surely you must know that by now???

I for one would find these revelations very enlightening and potentially cost effective....Why are you worried about having to accomplish anything with this list, it's just simple sharing really... [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

So once again, I would really LOVE to know what product YOU consider to be on your "get way more bang for the bux" list, either a current product or an older goldie??

And Paul, what specific quality(ies) in your mind and respected opinion makes that product a winner?

Thanks in advance for your consideration [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

i have came across a few very good value products oiver the years, although some arent cheap, the real value is in the benefit of whats gained by using them, here is a short list

audio control 2xs, back in the day, and once in a while these days, this x-over was capable of making a huge difference in alot of peoples stereos, you can find them used now for 40-50$

dr crankenstien spl 12". hard as hell to blow up and you could buy them by the pallet from allegro for like 18 cents each or something, bought a new car cuz of those, they were 99$ retail

morel mdt30 tweeter, the best value tweeter on the planet imo, at 150$ or so, you cant lose

audio alchemy dtav1.1 outboard d/a converter with anti jitter, was aroung 500$ new and can be picked up today for under 100 bucks. put a few of those in cars and was always blown away

mtx black gold 10" woofer, still some of the best bass ive ever heard in a car, for around 200$ when new

phoenix gold bass cube, always made a huge difference for only 300$ or so new, i will use one in my house one day if my neon ever gets finished

saved the best for last, alpine pxah900, at 5999.95, easily the best piece of car audio processing ever made, and worth every penny, the only people that would dispute it are people that dont own one or have never used one

i havent really ever came across a really inexspensive piece of car audio that really stuck min my mind as something that i couldnt live without, but would find it interesting to hear other peoples treaures

[ May 24, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: defro13 ]

Swan 305, available from Madisound. Great sounding, affordable 12" woofer that you can seal, port, and bandpass load.

Focal 5K013-L 5" polykevlar midrange. They don't make them any more, but they are fantastic drivers with great dynamic range. Can also be run from really low to really high...like 40hz to 4khz in a car. They were $75 bucks cdn each!!!

The MDT-30 mentioned above...

And for the all time greatest piece of car audio gear on my list....
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The PXA-H900 of course. :D

Adam

i used to use 2 of the 5k013-l with an infity emit tweeter in the front doors of a car i used to have, the fell apart alot but were great while they stayed together, phase plugs always fell off

A passive system takes marginally more time to install than an active one. Essentially the time to assemble the networks and potentially a few component changes.

What a passive system does require is an excellent understanding of the equipment and the environment the equipment is going into.

I will agree that a passive system is not as easy to tune as turning a dial or pressing a button until the system sounds alright. One has to do some pre-engineering to get it right or very close to right the first time around.

i agree it takes marginally more time to install, but way more time to design to reach the same end result as the active system. yous eem to think that an active sytem doesnt require as much understanding of the equipment, perhaps not to someone doing a basic active system, but someone using a pxah900 or 701, a far better understanding is critical