I get alot of emails asking what kind of system do you have to have to compete is SQ. He is my Pro Street and Advanced Pro, 2000 Neon. It's a simple system...

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[ May 30, 2004, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Westec ]

what does it take to compete and win, time, money, experience and dedication, what does it take to just compete, time and money

My perception of what it takes is a love for sound, cars and pride in your hobby. Hell, I've seen people compete SQ with a factory head unit built up from there AND placed top 3 in their class!

To me, to compete in SQ or SPL, it takes what you have in your system to start and you grow from there... If you like competing, then you improve your system from that point, if you want to.

I believe he was looking for entry to moderate system suggestions as an example that you don't have to fork over major bux [img]smile.gif[/img]

Gear isn't as important as people might think, but you need to be one hell of an installer to pull it off. You could spend up to $2000 on gear, and maybe a few hundred hours of finicky work (which James can do) and have the best system out there. And then just tune it correctly. my car is very flexible, but in the wrong hands, that's just more stuff for an idiot to screw up. :D

The simpliest of systems needed to compete is a pair of compents and a single 10 or 12. Be willing to spend some money on a membership to a SQ organization. List to people who are successful in the SQ area. Not armchair quarterbacks....

INSTALL INSTALL INSTALL.

Anything can sound good with proper install.

Most important peice in my eyes next to a cd player is a crossover. Without a good X-Over what's the point of competing. I know many people will agree with me that Active is the way to...a good 3 way front end is a good way to start as well. Once your front end is rockin ei: your staging is good, width, height and depth, focus on the subbass....DO NOT go into an IASCA SQ show with your subs screaming....IASCA judges usually don't like alot of bass in the music, it should ideally sound like perfect recreation of a concert/recording studio.

Whenever building a budget system, My advise is to spend a great deal of time and research on a CD player/processing and EQ...then scope out a good installer. Or do it yourself.

Remember, don't buy anything on someone else's word that it's good....go listen it it your self and decide...Yea I can tell you that my Clarion DRX9255 is a wicked unit or the 8250Ti and it sounds awesome, but your tastes might be different then mine.

head unit and processing is the least important when getting started. You will get much better results concentrating on speaker positioning and sound than anywhere else for SQ.

What was the first 3 words I wrote? INSTALLx3....then you figure out your deck and stuff like that, I guess if your gonna run in a rookie class you don't need to worry about going active and running a real good processor, but it definatly helps and if the judges like it they may tell you to compete in a more advanced class which to me, would be a big confidence booster.

My first IASCA car is a perfect example as to where people can start. The biggest thing that bugs me, especially in my area is that people automatically think they need the fancy fiberglass install, kick pannels, tricky crossovers, 500 band eq's....ok I am getting carried away but you get my point.

My first IASCA car consisted of a Clarion entry/mid level deck. Can't remember model number, but you old FS'ers will remember it. The grey one with the crosshairs for volume and track. They replaced the all black stuff in the mid 90's. Very basic deck. 1 or 2 sets of pre-outs, thats it.
I think the tweekiest thing in the car was the kicks. We took the time to build a pretty moderate set of kicks. Yes it took us a while, and we learned ALOT along the way, but they sounded pretty good. They were filled with a pair of Infinity Reference 5 1/4 components. If I remember right, those were entry level components as well. I think I has a 1/2 din Clarion eq which was maybe 6 bands.
For amps I was running 2 Blaupunkt V250's. 1 for the components and 1 for the 2 10' MTX Blue Thunder's. Thats it. Over time the low end changed into 1 12" Blue Thunder because I wasn't getting the low end I wanted.
But all in all, I think the system cost maybe $2000. Install included.

My first year competing, it did ok. I think it got a couple 4-6th positions. Not too bad. As long as you go into it as a learning experience, you won't be disapointed. If you go in expecting to win all the time, go play marbles or somthing. Some of the biggest advice I can give is to listen to what the judges are saying and ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS!!!!! If you don't understand what they are telling you, ASK! Thats why they are there. It is a little intimidating your first year in, but after a couple shows, you get into the swing of things and it gets alot more comfortable.
As you get a little more experience, and if your budget allows, you can start to expand your system. This always doesn't have to mean equipment. Using the same emquipment with different installs can be very exciting. You learn that your gear that you have been listening to for so long can sound so much different given a different install.

Remember, competing is a learning process. You don't get to the top over night (well in rare cases you can but it usually involves lots of money and its not as much fun). But remember its supposed to be fun. As soo as you feel its not fun anymore, stop competing. I think thats where IASCA turned alot of people away in the mid-late 90's. People were way to serious. I mean look at me. I had bright freakin red hair every compition I went to. How serious was I? I was pretty serious. Next question is how much fun I had? I can hoenstly say it some of the best times of my life.

I'm a firm believer that you can do fairly well in competition at least at the local and regional level using mid-level gear and a basic, but very well thought-out install. And if you don't know what is required on how to install a good sounding system or what good sound is or how to tune a car then ask around and find somebody who does. And I would place the most emphasis on the speakers when buying gear.

^By ensuring the speakers are not the weak link you keep yourself out of the unenviable position of being part way through a competition year and outgrowing your speakers. This is assuming your doing things on a weekly basis to upgrade the sound of your system.

Question: how many SQ competitors are you seeing at a typical event? This is a serious question, besides this thread has stayed on topic way to long, it is time to make the Mods work!

^ Less and less every year.

People love SPL for some reason, I don't find it's as fun as it was a few years ago though....SPL vehichles are so sealed up you don't get to hear anything outside the vehicle except maybe the panels rattling.

SQ was dying out for a while, there's still a lot of diehard SQ guys out there and the numbers seem to be growing back agin slowly but all in all there's not a whole bunch of SQ people left

Mostly I think it's because people don't have the patience or the money for SQ. You can build yourself an SPL system, using used equipment off a for sale section on just about any forum, for $2K or less and be very competitive with the right sub-box. A perfect example is what I've been seeing here and on ECA...Yuli is selling that big Visonik amp that's making 1500+WRMS and only asking 350 for it....I'm positive there's another one elsewhere that someone is selling for around the same price....then on ECA I found a pair of the original DD Beast's (9918) some guy wants 500u.s. for the pair, if I had the money I'd buy them in an instant too....anyway, so you buy a $180 pioneer deck from FS, grab some big thick wire a new battery or 2 and a fuse block...a set of RCA's and perhaps a line driver if you really feel the need. Tear out your back seats for the weekend, build a kickass box for under $150 and your off to the races. I would say with 1500+WRMS to each Beast and the right box you could probably do high 150's possibly low 160's depending on how well you deaden your car and how well you designed the sub box.

Whereas in SQ you'd be lucky to build a competitive system for $2K or less even in a rookie class. If you did manage to create a really nice system worthy of whoopin ass in the SQ portion of the event, you had better be aweful creative with install or you will not score very well even with a perfect sound score....it would be hard to do much fiberglass in a budget system because of the cost, so you'll have to resort to just fiberglass kick panels or mount your speakers in the doors....and your trunk/hatch would pretty much have to be seamless and be very very well thought out....I definatly not saying it can't be done, but it would be a challenge and a half.....and a crap load of fun.

Brandon I tend to disagree that you wouldnt be too competitive with a smaller valued system in SQ. Now I only disagree in the rookie division as once you get past your first year you are going to compete against alot tougher compitition. But lets break it down like this:

Rookie
- SQ Judging 150 points
- Installtion 65 points
- RTA 30 points
- SPL 35 points

Now the SQ portion is about 53% of the overall judging and if you were to score well there (which is possible with good placement). Now your installation DOES NOT have to be all the fancy glassing work. As long as it meets the rules of saftey and integrity. Meaning that systems are clean, well mounted and properly wired you should score quite well here. In fact most members that read the rule book should be able to score well in installation because the rule book lays it all out to what has to be done in order to recieve maximum points. And with presentation for rookies only being 5 points of the 65 you should be able to get at least a 2-3 here for just knowing whats in your system. RTA is a tad bit tougher without an EQ but can be done with good xover points and amp gains as well as placement of front stage. SPL you should at least get 125-130db with a single 10-12 with any amp so you would get 25-30 points and the most you could get is 35 no matter how high you hit.

Not trying to say your wrong as I agree with you that most people have become bass heads and forgot that music is for listening not for burping. Also that SQ has slowly gone down in numbers because of strict compitition in the street and lower ultimate classes but rookie is still a place where the average person can have fun for a year to have a nice sounding system and then if they have a harder time the following year they can always change their sub(s) and amps to get them in SPL and then they will at least have an appreciation for SQ and most likely have a good SQL type of system

BTW SQ ALL THE WAY!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ May 31, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: MDXMan ]

I had 247 people compete is IASCA last year, I haven't seen that many in SPL...SQ still alive snd kickin'.

rules suck, who cares about the install, withing reason out of the possible 280 ponts 269 should be for sq the rest should be for install, safety in particular, ie fuses and so on, no bonus points for jack ****, bonus points for install should not be the determining factor in the winner in an sq competion, imo

Sadly, very few compared to SPL. I went to the only two competitions last year that offered SQ as a 'tag-along' to the SPL potion. The first show had me and 3 others. The other show had me and 2 others sign up and they just cancelled the SQ portion due to low turn out :(

I do feel though that SQ is starting it's comeback but SPL will still do strongly.

westec is that IASCA or in Canada at IASCA events.

Yea, I agree with that....You could do alright in a Rookie class, but you need to remember that when somebody is out for the first time in an SQ comp, chances are that they have researched the rules quite well and have usually gone above and beyond what is expected. But you're right in that your install does not have to be all fiberglass and plexi, especially in a rookie class, or even in advanced and expert classes. A great example is Markey Dietrich(sp?) Yea, he has spent a load of money on that install and equipment and usually does very well in competition. Jason Gay uses some really nice equipment...better than Markey IMO(just because of the VRx's :D ) but he uses minimal fiberglass in the new install....I believe it's only in the kicks and a couple trim pieces now. He still does really well and I believe he's in the ultimate class or expert...whatever they call it now.

I really can't agree with you on that one. If someone is truley out for their first time, chances are they will be a true "rookie" and be learning as they go. There are only a VERY select few that would actually design their car to be set up for IASCA rules. And those few are the same people that would most likley skip right past the rookie category.
I think this is the type of mis-information that keeps people from entering for their first time. They hear they will be spanked before they even enter, which 9 times out of 10, isn't true. If your a true rookie, you should use the rookie year as a learning experience, improving your car as the year goes on. Hell that goes for any category, but especially in rookie.

ok, what about those of us who would spend a year improving the vehicle BEFORE entering any competitions, and build it to meet or exceed all of the standards, because we (ok, lets get to it, "I") want to not only ahve a great sounding system, but also to win rookie class? or at least make it to finals.

I woukld say you are one of the "few" I had talked about earlier. Most people won't take that time to do so.

John Vroom

Competed in IASCA in Canada...

It's too bad about the low turnouts in SQ. I know there’s a bunch of people out there with quality systems that would do VERY well under IASCA rules...but they don't have a desire to compete at all.

Either Canadians are too conservative to care about bragging rights or they simply don't want to advertise their hard earned systems publicly. Most say “why bother”

As I am fond of saying these days "Bring it"

John Vroom, my biggest supporter.

I think I can just about hear the "are you competing yet" taunts coming my way.

I don't agree with that Pete, I refuse to believe someone would jump in feet first into competition without having a clue what they're getting into.

I have been around the competition scene for 2 years now, I know I'm still not ready for competition...I still don't know as much as I would like to know before I start into it....I know a bit about the rules and I know what judges are looking for....but I'm still trying to learn more before I start into competition.

I don't want to be caught off-guardby something I've done that a judge points out to me....I want to know exactly what to expect, that's why I go to as many shows as possible...I also know several people that compete...I realize some people don't have that option, but that's the beauty of the internet.....you can talk to just about anybody that competes on the net.

[img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

No offence, but I think that taking 2 years to prepare for you rookie class is just slightly over doing it. Remember, this is suppose to be fun and a way to learn about car audio.
I started competing in the mid 90's and I would say I learned more in the first year at compitions, than I did "researching" on the net and such. No I didn't win all my comps in the first year, but the amount I learned helped me go undefeated my second year. That is also the year I got to attend finals.
I am not saying being prepared is wrong, and that you have to absolutly jump right in, but I think that a few people do get scared away when they hear of people that spend countless hours getting a car ready just to compete.
The "rookie" category is designed for people with entry level systems to gain experience and then advance to higer levels.
I dunno...I guess I am just stoked on getting new people out and not being intimidated.

Of the one show I went to that had an SQ portion, I believe I was the only 1 of 4 persons that had previous competition experience. I know for sure that 2 of the 3 had no previous experience. It was a sanctioned IASCA event too, so there definitely are complete noobs to the competition game that want to enter and compete.

PEI330CI - Adam I support your work but competition is tough and is not for everyone. To have a guy look over your car and listen to it... and then tell you it is not perfect is difficult. To invest the blood sweat and tears associated with your build and then to have a yahoo tell you ... "nope wandering center image" "I hear a resonance" "wiring not to USACi/IASCA standards" is tough. They are insulting your baby (seriously, during the judging, some people react the same as when you criticize their children). I say competition should be fun and having another set of ears listen to your car and honestly critique it has value in the pursuit of sonic perfection. I do not recommend it for the thinned skinned but for the guy who wants genuine advice and criticism.

John, I don't need to go to a competition. I just show pictures here, and then.....

No offence, but I think that taking 2 years to prepare for you rookie class is just slightly over doing it. Remember, this is suppose to be fun and a way to learn about car audio.
. </font>[/QUOTE]I won't be competing in a Rookie class when I compete.

The people that I am learning from are all Advanced and Expert class competitors.....I will build my car to Expert standards and start out in the Advanced 601+ class.....I'm not sure what the new name for that class is. That way, I can slowly do upgrades and within a year or so, compete in the Expert class and be very competitive. MOstly I'm trying to learn imaging techniques instead of install, since I know pretty much what I'm doing for install.

I'll likely take another year to do my install as it will be very detailed and I wanna get it right the first time.

Brandon, I have a very simalar approach to doing things with my car. But, I keep finding that no mater how well I plan, I screw something up. In the process of screwing something up, I learn more in that 2 or 3 days than a month of asking people how to do it.

I don't think it matters what goes in your car. If you are serious about having a top notch install, there's no better way than finding out yourself how to do it. (both the wrong way and the right way) I can think of at least 10 things I planned to do to my car, that I now think differently about. For example, I have run into numerous fitment problems with my car. There is no way to plan how to work around these issues without getting your hands dirty. The fitment issues are specific to my car, but I've learned many new approaches to installing gear to minimize the mess ups.

Sure, take a year to do your install. But don't wait untill you think you are ready. Start now!

I'm 9 months into mine, and I can easily see another year of stuff to do.

Brandon, I'm not cutting you down. I think your enthusiasm for car audio is great. Let's start hearing about what you are DOING, not what you plan to do.

Adam

Oh god, I'm a few weeks into my install and my plans have changed so many times - it's the little things you think of doing during the install that sets you back. The overall plan doesn't change, but you just start feeling like you wanna do this, and then that, and all those small things add up to so much time lost. Then you never end up finishing anything. &lt;sigh&gt;

Hahahaha...ok, here's what I'm DOING....I'm waiting till next spring for my Cavalier to get back from Florida(used to be my mommy's car). More updates next spring :D


No, actually I am waiting for the car to get back,then I'm taking the motor out of the Park Avenue I'm driving now(3.8L) and dropping it in the Cav(1994) and it's NOT going to be hard so anyone that thinks about saying it can pipe down cause you'll jinx the whole operation [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img] :D
Then I am going to be very shortly looking into a Drive 30 EQ.....with any luck at all I'll have saved up enough money by next year to start piecing together an install....I'm pretty serious about getting the VRx 6/460 and possibly an LRx mono block of some kind.....Every thing that is in my Sig WILL be in the Cav except possibly the Behringer....I'm also, very soon, going to be looking at buying a good 1000SqFt of Brown Bread or something similar so I can do at least 2 layers over the whole car...including the floor, roof and fire wall. The main reason I wanna take at least a year on install is because I'm rebuilding the entire dash from scratch....something similar to Steven Heads Civic but I'm going to have a 12" Access right in the dead center of the dash....in addition to the sub in the dash, I will also have my proccessor mounted there for easier access(especially while tuning), Hidden X-Over(AC 4XS) and I'll probably stick with Scosche for wiring except I'll use 0/1 guage instead of 4 like I'm using now.....onew other thing I'd like to look into is running Zapco Symbalink from my deck to the proccessor(whatever it may be)and then to the X-Over......and if I can afford it, to the amps as well....Any suggestions?

My understanding is that the Symbalink is comprised of an input amplifier, and an output amplifier. Essentially a box on each end of their special cable. Simply put, it would unessessarily add electronics in the signal path for the purpose of noise rejection.

I'm running an unbalanced, unshielded set of RCAs in my BMW with no noise problems.

If you are serious about using a true "balanced" connection from the front to the rear of the car, look at the Audison Balanced System. The VRx6.420 already has the input stage for this system built into the amp.

Adam

Actually I wasn't too worried about noise as much as signal voltage....I think the 8250Ti has a 4-5Volt out which wouldn't be a problem but I could get 18 volts for better signal to the amps instead of using a line driver which I don't like.

most amps aren't designed to handle any more than a 5 volt input signal, any more than that and they distort the input stage.

Brandon, I get the feeling that you love technology.

Ever check out Meridian home audio stuff. It will open your eyes.

Adam