Dave, they sprung for two nites hotel accomodations for judges coming into town !?!!??!? Damn, why didn't anyone tell me about that. I would have gladly accepted an offer like that to shack up free of charge in a 5 star on the strip............ with room service too rite ?!?! :D

Moe,

Audiothunder has never been a Gem-Sen show. Mike O'Connor from our office has been actively involved from the very start back when he was at Kennedy Hi-Fi, then Canadian Audio & Radio and now Gem-Sen. I've been at Gem-Sen for over 10 years and we showed up as ordinary exhibitors just like everyone else did and we still do. My personal involvement(seperate from Gem-Sen and done on my own time) has been with the IASCA portion, rounding up judges and whatever else IASCA entails. I also do their webwork. My job has gotten been easier over the years with guys like Jamie Edmundson, & Tom Ehlers who've acted as head judges over the the past few years. I owe those guys alot of thanks because our presence has always been spearheaded by myself so with set-up teardown and the dealer training seminars that happen all weekend are very taxing by the end of the weekend.
In terms of idBl, ProSho did have both one year and the interest at the time was towards dBdrag. The goal of the show is to make it "The show to go to" and we decided to concentrate on dBdrag because it had the larger following. When the opportunity for making it a key event arose
ProSho jumped at the chance to make the show even bigger and accepted. Not being able to have 2 Key events from dBdrag and IASCA at the same show is correct. Whether it was IASCA's or dBdrag's rule it was I dont remember since it wasnt a discussion that I was involved in. I just know that it wasnt allowed.
I'm not knocking IASCA, Paul has some great ideas and goals. ProSho has been involved with them for a long long time and they've experienced all the growing pains, all the manpower changes and all the other fun stuff. This year it's time for a break. Reality is they want to host a sucessful show. If there is strong interest and enough co-operation then they'll have both.

My issue is that if you eliminate SQ from one of Canada's largest shows then what will draw competitors to future shows? How can Moe possibly attempt to draw folks up to Huntsville to compete at the BEST SQ SHOW IN CANADA if they don't see what its all about at Audiothunder at the beginning of the year? How can you gain interest? Off hand at least five competitors started off their interest in SQ competition by attending Audiothunder - myself included!!! Now, the only way to hear about SQ is to log on here, Carsound, read Sport Compact National or perhaps travel out to Moe who tirelessly supports the industry.

In order to generate revenue from a show you have to acheive a fine balance. You need to have a show format for people to compete in and you need to advertise the competition (this is up to the SHOW promoter not IASCA... you want people coming to see your show and spending money competing at your show, you need to spend the bucks to promote your show). If these things are done, you will definately have people attend. Not to bash Audiothunder, but the only advertising I have ever heard has been on 680news which isn't exactly directed at the market they are trying to bring to the show.. I don't see too many executives wanting to burp their bimmers in the SPL lanes (Sorry Tom).

On another note, how can you have a "car show" with SPL vehicles. SPL vehicles by their very nature are geared at function over cosmetics (except of course Moe's sexy Civic ;) ). People come to a show to see wild installs and cars they can't see every day. I'm sorry, but I'm not excited walking by a dirty cube van with a wall of woofers... I'd be a lot more thrilled walking by Marc Turner's Neon, Mark E's 4Runner, or Gary Bigg's Regal... just to name a few. By not having "show cars" - which SQ cars definately are, what are you doing to bring people to your show? Have a funky SPL meter up and a grand-stand?? It's a CAR SHOW, lets not forget that people are paying to see CARS!

Lastly, IASCA is definately not an innocent party. On the whole IASCA has very limited support for Canadian shows. The Canadian dollar is conducive to running MANY MANY IASCA shows at a fraction of the US cost... Can you imagine having a Steel Valley Regional in Ontario around mid-summer? You'd have people coming from all over... cheap entrance fees, cheap hotel fares, cheap food... cheap real beer! But no... only a few of the die hard Canadian supporters host a limited number of shows for a demographic that is SCREAMING for attention...

I fear that with the death of SQ at Audiothunder, you will see the death of SQ in Canada... and I fear the death of mobile audio apart from mobile video and affordable subwoofers.

By Audiothunder not hosting an SQ competition they are essentially turning their backs to this important demographic and saying that their vehicles aren't show worthy, competition worthy, and do not draw a crowd.

I for one feel that this is a slap in the face... [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

I've been attending Audio Thunder in one fashion or another since its inception. I've been a exhibitor, spectator, judge and photographer. Some of my most memorable car audio experiences happened while being involved with that event (both good and bad).

I am indeed sad to see that Audio Thunder will not be an IASCA event, as I do seem to see a rise in the number of competitor as of late, and our showing at the IASCA finals was indeed impressive. But, I am not surprised.

Perhaps something will surface next year in terms of an SQ competition. Personally, I'd like to write my own rules and create my own series, but with 30 or 40 people in attendance, that just doesn't seem like it would be worth the investment in time or money, especially since I am completely out of spare amounts of either these days.

What got you into car audio? Chances are, it wasn't reading about it on the internet, but by hearing, and seeing local competition, and regular street cars. How are we supposed to gain new interest in this industry, if all people ever see is dirty, gross looking spl vehicles! (sorry to any spl competitors.) Sure, spl is exciting, but imo, there is very little 'class' involved in it, ESPECIALLY compared to sq.

If IASCA won't support its canadian sound quality competitors, Why should manufacturers support their canadian competitors?

If sound quality is as dead as IASCA is implying it to be, I say stop manufacuting tweeters. Whats the point? They cant play below 80 hz anyways!

With support like this, i really do hope that this industry can support itself by replacing broken cd players in 45 year old mothers' minivans, because this is what the industry is coming to, and the reason that many people, friends of mine, and quite possibly even myself have been discouraged by, and left this industry. I just hope im not around to see, and be involved in, its demise.

Orion, no one is implying that SQ is dead, certainly not IASCA. This thread is focused on the fact that Audiothunder will not be hosting an SQ competition in 2004, which definitely does not help the SQ situation, specifically in Central and Southern Ontario, as well as the northeastern U.S. and the province of Quebec, but does not necessarily hurt it either.

To everyone, what we need on this thread is some constructive ways to get IASCA back into Audiothunder so we may all enjoy the benefits of a multi-organizational event that caters to all aspects of car audio competition. Hell, I'd like to see dB Drag, IASCA, USAC, MECA and SLAP ALL at Audiothunder... imagine the show then !!!

Needless to say, we'd need to have a show promoter who would be willing to make the initial investment in such an event. It would be a huge undertaking, but I truly believe it would be the most successful event in Canada.

But, baby steps first... my thought is we have to let Larry and the gang at Pro Sho know how important it is to bring SQ back, by either calling, emailing or mailing them with our thoughts and support of SQ. I may be wrong, but I think the folks at Pro Sho are simply looking at the dollar return on investment and without competitor support in SQ, there's no return. Once again, this could be because of the time of year the event is held, the fact that some SQ competitors just aren't thinking about competition when there's still 2 or 3 feet of snow on the ground or maybe their latest install just isn't finished yet... let's face it, this is the time of the year when most competitors are doing just that, rebuilding their system.

So let's try to focus on a positive spin in regards to this and be proactive in getting SQ back to Audiothunder.

Tom, I still don't understand what you mean by IASCA support of Audiothunder... I apologize, I'm just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from.

IASCA's mission statement is what it says "To promote the mobile electronics industry and to enhance the retailer's ability to consistently reach greater segments of the consumer marketplace." By giving the retailer a format in which to host events, clinics and using the IASCA rule book on the showroom floor, the retailer can attract more consumers, of which a percentage will become competitors, thus increasing the organization's membership and developing a new culture in which these competitors can compete. It's not only about the competitor, but the retailer, the manufacturers, the distributors, the show promoters and the organizations... we're ALL involved and we ALL have to have a certain level of commitment to help the industry grow. Because without the industry, there would be no product to sell, therefore there would be no retailers, no manufacturers, no organizations, no events, no consumers and no competitors. It is a TEAM effort.

Please email me on your thoughts. I can understand your frustration towards IASCA and you know I have a lot of respect for you, but I do believe your frustration is a bit misguided. Having talked at length with Paul Papadeas about the situation (you know which situation I'm referring to) made me understand that what happened was just a very BIG lack of communication and unfortunately, as much as Paul has tried to remedy the situation, has fallen on deaf ears. Please do not belittle IASCA or any other organization for that matter; not only does it hurt IASCA, but all the other orgs as well and their competitors.

Dave, thanks for clearing that up for me. There's nothing I hate more than being misinformed and that seems to be the situation here. Once again, if Pro Sho can see it's way clear to hosting another IASCA event, I would gladly offer my services as an IASCA certified judge at NO charge to see the rebirth of IASCA at Audiothunder. It would be a small price to pay to see IASCA SQ and IdBL competitors, competing at Audiothunder with smiles on their faces. If you could relay that to Larry for me would be greatly appreciated.

I for one have voiced my thoughts to everyone at Pro Sho numerous times in regards to this... I suggest that anyone who feels as strongly about this as I do should do the same.

[ November 29, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Moe Sab ]

One other point I'd like to make... there is not one organization that offers it's services for nothing.

Organizations like dB Drag, IASCA, USAC, MECA and SLAP are businesses, owned by individuals. Businesses are started for one purpose, to make money. If a business does not make money, they will soon be out of business.

I can tell you, from experience, it is not cheap to run an event, and believe me, Wayne Harris from dB Drag, Paul Papadeas from IASCA, Steve Stern from MECA and Ralph from USAC don't put major events on, like Audiothunder, for free. They are paid to be there and people like myself and Larry at Pro Sho foot the bill to have our organization of choice represented at our event. It is then passed down to the competitor who pays the entry fees to compete at this event to offset the cost of having this organization at the show. It comes down to what the public (or in our case,the competitor base) demands. So if the public asks for a dB Drag event, they get a dB Drag event, if they ask for an IASCA event, they get an IASCA event.

The organizations are not necessarily there out of the goodness of their respective hearts, they're there to make money, to survive financially.

This may sound cold, but it is the truth. On the other side of the coin, they appreciate the enthusiasm we as competitors have for their organizations and offer us incentives to compete in their organizations and we the competitors make the organizations grow with our support. These organizations began with an idea, a passion that is shared by all of us and certain people with a vision to see it evolve, stepped up and took a risk to see their vision come to life. People like Wayne Harris, Paul Papadeas, Steve Stern and Ralph from USAC (Sorry I've forgotten Ralph's last name). They have built the organizations that we belong to and compete in and want to ensure their survival. We have to respect that and support them the way they support us by taking their vision and making it a reality, but by the same token, they cannot continue to do so if they can't make any money at it.

I'm not saying that making money is a bad thing in their case, it's just the reality of the situation. I hope no one out there thinks that the organizations support the shows, it's the shows that support the organizations and they support the organization that the competitor wants to see at their show. So it's up to us to let the show promoter know which organization we want to see supported at their show. That's what will bring IASCA back to Audiothunder.

I apologize for venting, I just felt it had to be said. Thanks for reading...

I'm not going to sit here and say I know and understand it all with regards to IASCA. I'm just giving my perspective from what I see and hear.

Let's talk again specifically about Audiothunder and the bigger picture. I haven't heard of or seen any senior IASCA people that run the IASCA business actually show up to Canada's possibly largest SQ show to visually be here to support anything. We're talking possibly Canada's largest IASCA SQ show. And what sort of professionally organized and developed booth do they have at any shows in Canada to actively show they have a real presence here and are here to seriously support and make good on their mission statement towards the manufacturers/distributors/retailers? How many booths at the show have had someone officially from IASCA visit them and talk to them about IASCA and it's benefits.......... sell the value of IASCA??? I'd think that Audiothunder has one of the largest collection of retailer/distributor/manufactures on the floor for car audio anywhere in Canada at the same time. Where is IASCA and their mission statement actions on this issue??????? What is IASCA officially doing to promote IASCA to Canadian retailers?? Has IASCA done enough to maintain the efforts of those like Jamie Edmundson, Mark Bruno, etc or have they squandered away those valuable resources. I have a whole lot of questions but no answers.

This is not about belittling IASCA but to me it's about clarifying IASCA's position in Canada. It's talking about IASCA coming to Canada and showing some real value, especially to retailers. IASCA has to take some risk first and help develop Canada, otherwise it's never going to happen. And more importantly and the real telling statement is this..........if IASCA was serious about Canada, they'd know about Canada's biggest IASCA SQ show and be up here kicking butt trying to promote it.............. or should I say save it from oblivion. It seems they either no nothing about the biggest Canadian IASCA SQ show and retailer/ditributor/manufacturer display, or they know about it but Canada is of no importance at this time as resources have been allocated elsewhere. If that's misguided, I'd like to know more about it. I'm always open to being wrong and admitting to it.

Thoughts?????????

Any chance our complaining will be put to use and there will be iasca SQ?? I would have went next year. This is a blow to IASCA in canada. I think getting people into the whole SQ/Install portion is the way to go. I think everyone likes nice installs, I have seen alot like Tim Ballies "Scary Installs" page. This is a blow to the industry of SQ. :mad:

Moe,

I have the utmost respect for you so dont take what I say personally, I'm just being devils advocate.

I love SQ more than I'll ever love SPL so I to am disappointed. There is some confusion over hosting a show and hosting a sucessful show.
Let's say ProSho decided to bring back SQ only which would mean it was a double pointer max. Now what, where are the competitors? If you would like ProSho to commit to having a competition and make the financial investment then we should have competitors sign up now, it's only fair. Very little if anybody takes advantage of the pre-registration discounts, not only that, they wait until the very last possible minute. Some because of rebuilding others for whatever reasons. I dont know about you but I think that it's not much of a competition if someone takes a first home because he's the only one in his class. You could put a car with a factory system through and it'd bring home a trophy and he'd win some cash on top of that. Personally I dont see any value in a competition like that, it isnt a competition at all if you cant have at least 3 competitors battling it out for 1st 2nd 3rd in each class. Reality is that this is what its been coming to during the last few years and it's a joke.
I encourage all of you to express your feelings to ProSho. At the same time I think if you are asking them to sink the money into trophies, cash prizes, the venue judges, sanctioning, scoresheets, extra staff etc then its not unrerasonable to make a commitment (registering now) as a competitor doing your part to support the show you love so much.
Keep in mind that AudioThunder is not the sole show happening at the International Centre. ProSho rents over 7 halls for 3 days with Performance World as the main show and Sport Compact Challenge & AudioThunder being features of Performance World. The entire show is over 350,000 square feet so ProSho has their hands full. Someone mentioned that ProSho should do a better job advertising, well over 70,000 people passed through that show last year and I can assure that it wasn't because of word of mouth. You could pay for a modest home with their advertising budget. They do radio ads on a bunch of different stations, newspaper ads direct mailings to all past competitors and besides, the show has been going on for over 10 years and its Canada's biggest. Every serious competititor knows when it is so I doubt very much that trippling the budget would make much of a difference in terms of bringing in more competitors.