Aiming kicks.
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
ISLANDFILE
There's a lot of things on CARSOUND that are right on the money. If you are agreeing with what Tim said about tweeter placement being more critical then mids............. I'd sure like to understand "why" you agree with Tim's statement?
I still believe based on my expeiences in building cars that the most important driver to sort out is the mid range, especially if it covers a wide frequency range extending down into the midbass area. Just the driver's size and how it needs to be placed to accomodate PLD's and intensity makes it the toughest one to design for in a car. Tweeters are relatively easy in comparison.
There's a lot of things on CARSOUND that are right on the money. If you are agreeing with what Tim said about tweeter placement being more critical then mids............. I'd sure like to understand "why" you agree with Tim's statement?
I still believe based on my expeiences in building cars that the most important driver to sort out is the mid range, especially if it covers a wide frequency range extending down into the midbass area. Just the driver's size and how it needs to be placed to accomodate PLD's and intensity makes it the toughest one to design for in a car. Tweeters are relatively easy in comparison.
Thread Starter
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,239
Hum. interesting.
I am finding the mids to be difficult.
They are JLvr5.25`s, they sound a bit harsh in the midrange but can be angled in a way to take the bite off. The problem is that I cannot angle the passenger side to kill the nasties.
what can be achied with aiming the mids? center image.. is that it?
I am finding the mids to be difficult.
They are JLvr5.25`s, they sound a bit harsh in the midrange but can be angled in a way to take the bite off. The problem is that I cannot angle the passenger side to kill the nasties.
what can be achied with aiming the mids? center image.. is that it?
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,120
Actually Tom, I don't believe I've ever said anything of the sort. Midrange will always be King.
BUT, if you are running a three way front stage with 6 inch mids and tweeters in the kicks next to the mids, sometimes frequencies which may have otherwise been handled by a mid capable of playing clean to say 6000 Hz (which pretty much is required when utilizing an A-pillar mounted tweet) may now be limited to say a clean 4000 Hz from a 6 inch mid and therefore the tweet has to be crossed over lower.
And as has been recently discussed on Carsound, pathlenghts can remain critical up to 6300 Hz.
So if I was using a 6 inch mid in the kicks, that would pretty much dictate also using a kick mounted tweet. And that tweets pathlenght would still be a critical factor as it would be playing frequencies below approx 6000 Hz.
Now, with A-pillar mounted tweets on the otherhand I've discovered that there are some serious limitations on mids being able to play to 6300 Hz, cleanly. Hard and fast rule has been to use cutoff frequencies one octave above and below the point at which cone breakup starts occuring....so x-over points will be SO IMPORTANT for the mid. Most often a 4 inch mid is the choice....only trouble is, it doesn't play low enough to frequencies where sound becomes more or less omnidirectional and non-critical to pathlenghts.
This is the design I have come up with and am currently working on:
A-pillar mounted tweets at or just below eye level, crossed over 6300 Hz or thereabouts, aimed to follow the curvature of the windshield.
Kick mounted 4 inch mids optimized for pathlenght and aimed for best effect, crossed over above 300 Hz and up to where ever they sound the best to meet the tweets.
Deeper kick mounted 6 inch midbass crossed over above 100 Hz to 300 Hz.
Door mounted IB config 8-inch bass driver runnning as low as I can get it to while sounding clean and up to 90-100 Hz with a steep low pass. Door must be very well dampened to eliminate resonances which would localize the bass driver.
Frequencies below 100 Hz are generally not critical for pathlenghts, whereas the 100 - 300 range is still important to pathlenghts, but not really critical as far as the direction it's aimed. Thus having the midbasses deeper back in the footwell is something I'm willing to try, and then have the bass driver in the door where pathlength should not be as critical.
Tom, I know you went with a dash mounted mid + tweet combo...howzat working for you?
[ February 03, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: islandphile ]
BUT, if you are running a three way front stage with 6 inch mids and tweeters in the kicks next to the mids, sometimes frequencies which may have otherwise been handled by a mid capable of playing clean to say 6000 Hz (which pretty much is required when utilizing an A-pillar mounted tweet) may now be limited to say a clean 4000 Hz from a 6 inch mid and therefore the tweet has to be crossed over lower.
And as has been recently discussed on Carsound, pathlenghts can remain critical up to 6300 Hz.
So if I was using a 6 inch mid in the kicks, that would pretty much dictate also using a kick mounted tweet. And that tweets pathlenght would still be a critical factor as it would be playing frequencies below approx 6000 Hz.
Now, with A-pillar mounted tweets on the otherhand I've discovered that there are some serious limitations on mids being able to play to 6300 Hz, cleanly. Hard and fast rule has been to use cutoff frequencies one octave above and below the point at which cone breakup starts occuring....so x-over points will be SO IMPORTANT for the mid. Most often a 4 inch mid is the choice....only trouble is, it doesn't play low enough to frequencies where sound becomes more or less omnidirectional and non-critical to pathlenghts.
This is the design I have come up with and am currently working on:
A-pillar mounted tweets at or just below eye level, crossed over 6300 Hz or thereabouts, aimed to follow the curvature of the windshield.
Kick mounted 4 inch mids optimized for pathlenght and aimed for best effect, crossed over above 300 Hz and up to where ever they sound the best to meet the tweets.
Deeper kick mounted 6 inch midbass crossed over above 100 Hz to 300 Hz.
Door mounted IB config 8-inch bass driver runnning as low as I can get it to while sounding clean and up to 90-100 Hz with a steep low pass. Door must be very well dampened to eliminate resonances which would localize the bass driver.
Frequencies below 100 Hz are generally not critical for pathlenghts, whereas the 100 - 300 range is still important to pathlenghts, but not really critical as far as the direction it's aimed. Thus having the midbasses deeper back in the footwell is something I'm willing to try, and then have the bass driver in the door where pathlength should not be as critical.
Tom, I know you went with a dash mounted mid + tweet combo...howzat working for you?
[ February 03, 2004, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: islandphile ]
Tim,
could you explain why you play with Tweeters first and then Mids on their positioning? On a lengthy discussion with Scott B, he swore by aiming the mids first...
show us the light please [img]graemlins/@bow.gif[/img]
could you explain why you play with Tweeters first and then Mids on their positioning? On a lengthy discussion with Scott B, he swore by aiming the mids first...
show us the light please [img]graemlins/@bow.gif[/img]
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
Tim has no light 
(joking)
I'm using the DLS UR1 tweeters and a DLS 2.5" mid dome that plays down to somewhere in the 300 hz range (can't remember exactly the spec) in the front dash corners. My dash and large centre console caused problems with kick panel design. The sound was being trapped in the foot wells in the vocals area with my previous two-way setup (tweeter below the mid!!). So up onto the dash I went. My dash is fairly deep but regardless, I still believe dash/A-pillar setups need some sort of time alignment (crutch!) to sort out the mids PLD wise. My mid-domes carry the majority of the frequency range and I’m very pleased with the tonality they provide. Also, my imaging and staging seems to be very good so far with the tweeters and mid domes. I say so far because the permanent installation is not finished yet as I’m still experimenting with positioning of the dash mounted domes. They first sat in the far left and right corners firing straight up. They now are tilted forward about 20 degrees aiming towards the window. Reasoning for that…….. it’s a secret, or I’m just trying to hide my insane ideas from scrutiny at this time!!! Tweeters are in the bottom corners of the A-pillars angled slightly upwards and parallel with the window and I think may get moved up a bit, but not much. Stage height is good. I’m running DLS Iridium 8” in the doors. The doors are nowhere near being finished yet. Staging and imaging is crap with installation in the stock door locations. Then I dialed in a huge amount of time delay to the right side and it did some funny things that helped one NOT be able to pin point where the midbass was coming from. I have a lot of work to do on those 8”. The doors are almost still stock with a 2” baffle and that’s about it. No sound deadening or other tricks applied yet.
Overall, I’m pretty happy with where the sound in the truck stands at this point. I think the problems can be overcome without too much crazy construction and without cutting up the vehicle. At this time, no EQ-ing has been done. Tuning is pretty much all X-over and TA. Once I get into EQ-ing, I’ll have to revisit the X-overs and TA and the back to EQ-ing and round and round in a circle until it gets nailed. But for daily driving right now, I’m enjoying what I’m hearing so far. It’s smooth and not fatiguing at all to listen to for long drives. DLS drivers are pretty laid back and similar to the Dyns I had. My front stage is pretty much what Team DLS Competition Members are using and what I’m recommending to our new Team DLS Canada Competition Members. Only difference is that Team members are running all DLS Twin Mono amps, where I can only fit in one at this time [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]
(joking)I'm using the DLS UR1 tweeters and a DLS 2.5" mid dome that plays down to somewhere in the 300 hz range (can't remember exactly the spec) in the front dash corners. My dash and large centre console caused problems with kick panel design. The sound was being trapped in the foot wells in the vocals area with my previous two-way setup (tweeter below the mid!!). So up onto the dash I went. My dash is fairly deep but regardless, I still believe dash/A-pillar setups need some sort of time alignment (crutch!) to sort out the mids PLD wise. My mid-domes carry the majority of the frequency range and I’m very pleased with the tonality they provide. Also, my imaging and staging seems to be very good so far with the tweeters and mid domes. I say so far because the permanent installation is not finished yet as I’m still experimenting with positioning of the dash mounted domes. They first sat in the far left and right corners firing straight up. They now are tilted forward about 20 degrees aiming towards the window. Reasoning for that…….. it’s a secret, or I’m just trying to hide my insane ideas from scrutiny at this time!!! Tweeters are in the bottom corners of the A-pillars angled slightly upwards and parallel with the window and I think may get moved up a bit, but not much. Stage height is good. I’m running DLS Iridium 8” in the doors. The doors are nowhere near being finished yet. Staging and imaging is crap with installation in the stock door locations. Then I dialed in a huge amount of time delay to the right side and it did some funny things that helped one NOT be able to pin point where the midbass was coming from. I have a lot of work to do on those 8”. The doors are almost still stock with a 2” baffle and that’s about it. No sound deadening or other tricks applied yet.
Overall, I’m pretty happy with where the sound in the truck stands at this point. I think the problems can be overcome without too much crazy construction and without cutting up the vehicle. At this time, no EQ-ing has been done. Tuning is pretty much all X-over and TA. Once I get into EQ-ing, I’ll have to revisit the X-overs and TA and the back to EQ-ing and round and round in a circle until it gets nailed. But for daily driving right now, I’m enjoying what I’m hearing so far. It’s smooth and not fatiguing at all to listen to for long drives. DLS drivers are pretty laid back and similar to the Dyns I had. My front stage is pretty much what Team DLS Competition Members are using and what I’m recommending to our new Team DLS Canada Competition Members. Only difference is that Team members are running all DLS Twin Mono amps, where I can only fit in one at this time [img]graemlins/cry.gif[/img]
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