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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
11-23-2010, 02:20 PM
#214
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Lets start with this.
Soundstage: The ability for our ears\brain to construct a virtual picture of where the different sounds emanate from (instruments, voices).
How do we hear?
In the midrange frequency (<1500hz) we hear differences in time arrival (known as inter-aural time differences ITD). The brain can calculate location based on the differences in arrival times between 2 ears. Move your midrange, move the apparent location of where the sound is emanating.
At higher frequencies (>3000hz), the ears\brain can no longer use time arrivals to locate where a sound is coming from. Instead it compares intensity or loudness (known as inter-aural intensity\level differences IID or ILD). Change the loudness, move the apparent location of where the sound is emanating.
So how can moving a tweeter --a frequency where we cannot tell differences based on distance but only loudness -- move the soundstage?
If one wants to confirm that the "meat and potatoes" of the sound stage sort of speak doesn't come from the tweets, listen to the system with only the tweets and then only with the midranges. See for yourself how well the stage does.
It's no secret, we suck at localization at higher frequencies. I am sure a lot of us have had to go searching for something making a high frequency sound and simply not being able to find it no matter how much we move our head and look around hehe. In constructing the virtual picture, our brain will count more on the midrange area then it will the higher frequencies. I am not saying there is no benefit in optimizing the tweets but their location has little to do with the stage.
So some people will say that moving their tweets have some affect on the stage. Well I'll tell you, it's not because of their location in relationship to you ears.. but rather, what's near them causing reflections. So it comes down to the environment being the numero uno obstacle to perfect sound reproduction. Not DAC's, not THD ect ect
ok I'm am getting off topic.
Soundstage: The ability for our ears\brain to construct a virtual picture of where the different sounds emanate from (instruments, voices).
How do we hear?
In the midrange frequency (<1500hz) we hear differences in time arrival (known as inter-aural time differences ITD). The brain can calculate location based on the differences in arrival times between 2 ears. Move your midrange, move the apparent location of where the sound is emanating.
At higher frequencies (>3000hz), the ears\brain can no longer use time arrivals to locate where a sound is coming from. Instead it compares intensity or loudness (known as inter-aural intensity\level differences IID or ILD). Change the loudness, move the apparent location of where the sound is emanating.
So how can moving a tweeter --a frequency where we cannot tell differences based on distance but only loudness -- move the soundstage?
If one wants to confirm that the "meat and potatoes" of the sound stage sort of speak doesn't come from the tweets, listen to the system with only the tweets and then only with the midranges. See for yourself how well the stage does.
It's no secret, we suck at localization at higher frequencies. I am sure a lot of us have had to go searching for something making a high frequency sound and simply not being able to find it no matter how much we move our head and look around hehe. In constructing the virtual picture, our brain will count more on the midrange area then it will the higher frequencies. I am not saying there is no benefit in optimizing the tweets but their location has little to do with the stage.
So some people will say that moving their tweets have some affect on the stage. Well I'll tell you, it's not because of their location in relationship to you ears.. but rather, what's near them causing reflections. So it comes down to the environment being the numero uno obstacle to perfect sound reproduction. Not DAC's, not THD ect ect
ok I'm am getting off topic.I am going to spank you so hard - everyone tune in for this one...
You drop dribs and drabs of insight, mixing contexts like a crazy bartender at a pick up bar - looking only to intoxicate people - well get ready for some sobering facts...
I will take on each of your many points, one-by-one, correcting the picture that you perverted...
One clue for you - distance - time - speed all have something to do with Acoustic Amplitude or SPL; change any one or more of these and you can change the perceived location of LIKE SOUND – IN REFERANCE to ANOTHER of LIKENESS – not all sounds / frequencies, as you suggest.
As well, sound occurs where sound occurs - if it's coming from your door then it's coming from your door - the goal is to trick our brains into thinking that it isn't. So the goal is to diminish the minds ability to determine the source of the sound while recreating / reproducing a transparent, linear sound stage, just as the recording engineered mixed it in the studio...
There is a process here – virtually all instruments are recorded in mono and mixed down in to a stereo mix. The mix is created in a recording studio, in a special room, which is sonically flattened, in which sound engineer is placed an equal distance from the main mixing monitors (which are electrically and physically time correct / aligned etc) , and on 0-degress axis – at which time they go to work to created a stereophonic mix.
The word stereophonic means to have 3-transparent, sonic dimensions... HxWxD.
When time error are present, transparency is the first to diminish towards zero – then depth, then height – some will argue that depth is first when using a digital source due to massive time errors... And they are correct; there isn’t one 12-volt head unit that can reproduce depth (when present)... In home audio there is but a few at 6K plus...
So regardless of what type of SQ system (home or Car) it’s desirable to have the sound propagating from as few drivers as possible and if – possible, only from two physical locations – one left – one right, location...
If we physically out our drivers we not only displace the time arrival of the frequencies within there respective bandwidths (therefore diminishing the stereo effect) but we also mess up the linearity of the system (frequency response) do to Lobing (I explained Lobing in another Text) – this is all very basic stuff...
Soooooo – if you move any speaker to far from another, you add complexities to overall calibration of the system – such as, you will now need more frequency equalization, higher order crossovers, and a signal – time alignment device(s) to assist you in bring into focus, a truly stereophonic sound field...
For high end SQ systems use high-end coaxes or mount your favourite separates in coax fashion, and install them in the kick panels, aiming the speakers as on axis with the driver seat as practical... It has been done 100, 000 times and has been the most winning approach in competition sound!
This was not the spank – it is yet to be delivered!
This was for the benefit of other reads, of whom, are trying to make a decision about how to design their front ends etc...
Stay tuned!
PS While you're all waiting for me to spank AAAAAAA - please - please, don't ingest his fiction!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-23-2010 at 04:26 PM.
11-23-2010, 03:39 PM
#216
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
She does - but she read these forums while we're having sex as a form of pay back...
11-23-2010, 04:08 PM
#217
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Orignal Question from go5
Hey all,
I know I am going to get some varying answers and suggestions to listen but really look for some guru opinions.
I am looking for a nice set of 6.5 coaxial for a front door install. They will be amped amd looking around the 300 dollar range (or less is better!).
Reason I want coaxial is there is no factory tweeter location and don't want thje tweeters mounted far away from the driver. I think coaxial is the way to go.
Any advice and suggestions is really appreciated.
Thanks
__________________________________________________ _____________
300 bucks is tuff - most product at that price will need the crossovers reworked to help them out etc...
Here's how it works - 300.00 retail = aprox. 180.00 cost to your local dealer = your dealers wholesaler pays around 108.00 the manufacturer has between 25-35.00 in their COG's, cost of goods etc...
So with this understanding $300.00 retail speaker system is really a 25-50.00 system max at production - that includes their overhead - take that out you have the actual hard cost which even lower that your not buying much audio...
Now the manufacturing cost between a 150.00 MSRP & 300.00 MSRP is only about 10.00 and most of that 10.00 is found in crossover upgrade - with very little of it gooding into the drivers - i'd say 80/20 at these proce points.
So here's what you need to consider doing, find a decent quality coax and build a custom external crossover. Look to spend about 150.00 on the speakers and the same on the crossover components...
12-caps
6-coils
8-resistors
These will allow us to build a 12dB lowpass, 18dB highpass, zobel netwrok for the tweeter, a notch filter for the tweeter - and an L-pad to balance the driver efficencies between the mid-bass and tweet.
I will help you design the crossovers... in the end for the same 300.00 you will have a system that will compete with those coming in at no less than 3x the cost, in terms of tonal quality...
Send me a PM if you want more insight.
Hey all,
I know I am going to get some varying answers and suggestions to listen but really look for some guru opinions.
I am looking for a nice set of 6.5 coaxial for a front door install. They will be amped amd looking around the 300 dollar range (or less is better!).
Reason I want coaxial is there is no factory tweeter location and don't want thje tweeters mounted far away from the driver. I think coaxial is the way to go.
Any advice and suggestions is really appreciated.
Thanks
__________________________________________________ _____________
300 bucks is tuff - most product at that price will need the crossovers reworked to help them out etc...
Here's how it works - 300.00 retail = aprox. 180.00 cost to your local dealer = your dealers wholesaler pays around 108.00 the manufacturer has between 25-35.00 in their COG's, cost of goods etc...
So with this understanding $300.00 retail speaker system is really a 25-50.00 system max at production - that includes their overhead - take that out you have the actual hard cost which even lower that your not buying much audio...
Now the manufacturing cost between a 150.00 MSRP & 300.00 MSRP is only about 10.00 and most of that 10.00 is found in crossover upgrade - with very little of it gooding into the drivers - i'd say 80/20 at these proce points.
So here's what you need to consider doing, find a decent quality coax and build a custom external crossover. Look to spend about 150.00 on the speakers and the same on the crossover components...
12-caps
6-coils
8-resistors
These will allow us to build a 12dB lowpass, 18dB highpass, zobel netwrok for the tweeter, a notch filter for the tweeter - and an L-pad to balance the driver efficencies between the mid-bass and tweet.
I will help you design the crossovers... in the end for the same 300.00 you will have a system that will compete with those coming in at no less than 3x the cost, in terms of tonal quality...
Send me a PM if you want more insight.
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-23-2010 at 04:12 PM.
11-23-2010, 05:11 PM
#220
!!!!AWAITING CONFIRMATION!!!!!!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 152
Three quick questions dogbaker.
Is an active system on the front stage mid/tweeter far better than any passive crossover any day?
What's your opinion on horns instead of tweeters (in mind are the Image Dynamics)?
And last, quite a few post back I saw you listed MTX Elite as quality SQ amps. I was surprised to see them listed but have no experience with them. Is it processing on those amps or design/components that make them good and does that technology trickle down to their medium/low end amps?
Thanks and I've been enjoying your thread.
300 bucks is tuff - most product at that price will need the crossovers reworked to help them out etc...
Here's how it works - 300.00 retail = aprox. 180.00 cost to your local dealer = your dealers wholesaler pays around 108.00 the manufacturer has between 25-35.00 in their COG's, cost of goods etc...
So with this understanding $300.00 retail speaker system is really a 25-50.00 system max at production - that includes their overhead - take that out you have the actual hard cost which even lower that your not buying much audio...
Now the manufacturing cost between a 150.00 MSRP & 300.00 MSRP is only about 10.00 and most of that 10.00 is found in crossover upgrade - with very little of it gooding into the drivers - i'd say 80/20 at these proce points.
So here's what you need to consider doing, find a decent quality coax and build a custom external crossover. Look to spend about 150.00 on the speakers and the same on the crossover components...
12-caps
6-coils
8-resistors
These will allow us to build a 12dB lowpass, 18dB highpass, zobel netwrok for the tweeter, a notch filter for the tweeter - and an L-pad to balance the driver efficencies between the mid-bass and tweet.
I will help you design the crossovers... in the end for the same 300.00 you will have a system that will compete with those coming in at no less than 3x the cost, in terms of tonal quality
Here's how it works - 300.00 retail = aprox. 180.00 cost to your local dealer = your dealers wholesaler pays around 108.00 the manufacturer has between 25-35.00 in their COG's, cost of goods etc...
So with this understanding $300.00 retail speaker system is really a 25-50.00 system max at production - that includes their overhead - take that out you have the actual hard cost which even lower that your not buying much audio...
Now the manufacturing cost between a 150.00 MSRP & 300.00 MSRP is only about 10.00 and most of that 10.00 is found in crossover upgrade - with very little of it gooding into the drivers - i'd say 80/20 at these proce points.
So here's what you need to consider doing, find a decent quality coax and build a custom external crossover. Look to spend about 150.00 on the speakers and the same on the crossover components...
12-caps
6-coils
8-resistors
These will allow us to build a 12dB lowpass, 18dB highpass, zobel netwrok for the tweeter, a notch filter for the tweeter - and an L-pad to balance the driver efficencies between the mid-bass and tweet.
I will help you design the crossovers... in the end for the same 300.00 you will have a system that will compete with those coming in at no less than 3x the cost, in terms of tonal quality
What's your opinion on horns instead of tweeters (in mind are the Image Dynamics)?
And last, quite a few post back I saw you listed MTX Elite as quality SQ amps. I was surprised to see them listed but have no experience with them. Is it processing on those amps or design/components that make them good and does that technology trickle down to their medium/low end amps?
Thanks and I've been enjoying your thread.
