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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
11-15-2010, 02:30 AM
#31
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
wires affect phase? I need to see data backing this. But if the wire affects phase , then it should affect it equally from both sides thus making it a non-issue.
I don't know that I agree that phase is more important then FR. .. I mean if there is something wrong with the phase where will we see it?.... FR...no?
The whole speaker wire affecting damping factor is true, it is part of the "system damping factor" which is a non factor outside of concerts with very long runs of wire.
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I ran out of time to get back to this one tonight -
Not sure what is ment by both sides but if your driving at a loop and 180 degree phase shift which would cancel - that thinking has no place here as the speaker will have already received the signal...
Damping factor like phase is affected, but damping isn't as critical and is much easier to measure than the individual arrival times of frequencies etc...
I don't know that I agree that phase is more important then FR. .. I mean if there is something wrong with the phase where will we see it?.... FR...no?
The whole speaker wire affecting damping factor is true, it is part of the "system damping factor" which is a non factor outside of concerts with very long runs of wire.
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I ran out of time to get back to this one tonight -
Not sure what is ment by both sides but if your driving at a loop and 180 degree phase shift which would cancel - that thinking has no place here as the speaker will have already received the signal...
Damping factor like phase is affected, but damping isn't as critical and is much easier to measure than the individual arrival times of frequencies etc...
While much is missing - much remains in even poor music systems that's why most people are happy low-fi systems - if you listening to your audio using highly compressed formats such as mp3's of ACC etc... learning about will help you understand what you're missing, other then sufficent data for your mind to complete the audio picture!
11-15-2010, 02:35 AM
#32
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 22
So with 20% dynamic power 3K-Watts @ 18' at 13.8 (assumed supplied voltage) with an acceptable Voltage drop of .5 Volts with two master fuses under the hood (-.02) and internal fusing in each amp (.04)....
225 amps continuos - peak of 450 amps @ 13.3 Volts
Equals = 2 pulls front to back!
225 amps continuos - peak of 450 amps @ 13.3 Volts
Equals = 2 pulls front to back!
11-15-2010, 02:55 AM
#33
50 Watt CAFz'r
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Apparently i have a poor grasp of english lol, but i do have a question for you.
Refering to a competition (spl) application, a "wall" style vented enclosure with woofers to the passenger side and vent to the driver side, I am trying to create a path for the rear sound wave to the vent with as little obstruction possible in efforts to closely maintain the spl from one side to the other of the enclosure....Hope your following me!!
I undestand ofcourse that as a wave travels further that it loses power and that as its reflected from surfaces that the same will occur so, how would "you design the interior of this cabinet "basic shape" for the purpose of sound pressure testing using only a single frequency??
Refering to a competition (spl) application, a "wall" style vented enclosure with woofers to the passenger side and vent to the driver side, I am trying to create a path for the rear sound wave to the vent with as little obstruction possible in efforts to closely maintain the spl from one side to the other of the enclosure....Hope your following me!!
I undestand ofcourse that as a wave travels further that it loses power and that as its reflected from surfaces that the same will occur so, how would "you design the interior of this cabinet "basic shape" for the purpose of sound pressure testing using only a single frequency??
To win - to be truely different you need to build an enclosure that will harness the energy being radiated of both sides of the cone, but in a way that there to fields can be brought togethere in as close to 25ms or less... sounds impossible - there called tapped horns - google tom danley and let the fun begin...
nothing more efficent - nothing louder in the world...
I am not a fan in High SPL applications of venting out a back of a box...
I would start here, if you're just beginning a new build...
11-15-2010, 03:06 AM
#34
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Apparently i have a poor grasp of english lol, but i do have a question for you.
Refering to a competition (spl) application, a "wall" style vented enclosure with woofers to the passenger side and vent to the driver side, I am trying to create a path for the rear sound wave to the vent with as little obstruction possible in efforts to closely maintain the spl from one side to the other of the enclosure....Hope your following me!!
I undestand ofcourse that as a wave travels further that it loses power and that as its reflected from surfaces that the same will occur so, how would "you design the interior of this cabinet "basic shape" for the purpose of sound pressure testing using only a single frequency??
Refering to a competition (spl) application, a "wall" style vented enclosure with woofers to the passenger side and vent to the driver side, I am trying to create a path for the rear sound wave to the vent with as little obstruction possible in efforts to closely maintain the spl from one side to the other of the enclosure....Hope your following me!!
I undestand ofcourse that as a wave travels further that it loses power and that as its reflected from surfaces that the same will occur so, how would "you design the interior of this cabinet "basic shape" for the purpose of sound pressure testing using only a single frequency??
11-15-2010, 03:47 AM
#35
50 Watt CAFz'r
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
The rate of electron flow isn't constant nor is equal to that of photons in a vacuum (AKA Light)... This isn’t my opinion it is scientific fact... I can understand how you may have come to believe you statements as being the truth, but you’re not even close to reality with your example...
Electrons when conducting say through copper, incur not only varying resistances, they also encounter inductance and capacitance and furthermore, these 3 quantities change by frequency and temperature – the more current you push the hotter they get and the resistance increases and the speed of electron flow increases... even the variations in the diameter of a single strain of copper affect a change, just like squeezing a garden hose will increase the rate at which water flows... – I am not saying that all these changes are always audible, but just that they occur and when you add them all up within a system – they are most definitely audible as time smears – another form of distortion... Plus signal loss and compression also occur which ad even more delays... No constants here – these can and do have an effect on your overall sound qualities... no question and not at hundreds of feet...
Now when we actually interconnect the amp and speaker these quantities marry and delays increase even more...
Once you exceed 8’ the delays become apparent to trained ears but measurement gear can observer them at an inch or two!
Here’s a test you can do at home!
Using your home stereo – it doesn’t have to be a good one... go out and buy say 50-feet of 16 gauge lamp wire – cut two eight foot pieces off and run them to your speakers etc, and listen to them for a couple of hours... then take the remaining 34’ and cut it into two 17’ pieces and side down and list to the same tracks – you will become instantly educated... but you must listen to the short ones first or you won’t know what is missing!
I could cite the math – I also have the gear to make such measurements with!
Last edited by dogbaker; 11-15-2010 at 04:14 AM.
11-15-2010, 07:09 AM
#36
I didn't read all the postings, so maybe someone posted this.
Anyways, I'm trying to decide on an amp for my system. It's just for pure amplification for a 100% SQ system. Should I spend a LOT of money in this area or can I just go with something middle of the road. Will I hear the difference?
Can you enlighten me in this area before I go out and drop a load of cash. I want to do the right thing.
Anyways, I'm trying to decide on an amp for my system. It's just for pure amplification for a 100% SQ system. Should I spend a LOT of money in this area or can I just go with something middle of the road. Will I hear the difference?
Can you enlighten me in this area before I go out and drop a load of cash. I want to do the right thing.
11-15-2010, 08:37 AM
#37
I like this question -
To win - to be truely different you need to build an enclosure that will harness the energy being radiated of both sides of the cone, but in a way that there to fields can be brought togethere in as close to 25ms or less... sounds impossible - there called tapped horns - google tom danley and let the fun begin...
nothing more efficent - nothing louder in the world...
I am not a fan in High SPL applications of venting out a back of a box...
I would start here, if you're just beginning a new build...
To win - to be truely different you need to build an enclosure that will harness the energy being radiated of both sides of the cone, but in a way that there to fields can be brought togethere in as close to 25ms or less... sounds impossible - there called tapped horns - google tom danley and let the fun begin...
nothing more efficent - nothing louder in the world...
I am not a fan in High SPL applications of venting out a back of a box...
I would start here, if you're just beginning a new build...
trapped horn doesnt produce a better result than a regular ported box. with ALOT of work into a trapped horn design you will get same results as a simple ported box.
11-15-2010, 10:59 AM
#38
So you have built and tested a proper Tapped Horn in a car? I would love to see this.
I however do think that it might be the same in a car considerning that a ported box in a car basically is a Tapped horn ( expecially a crx) ......... this will have to be tested to be proven however.
11-15-2010, 11:32 AM
#39
So you have built and tested a proper Tapped Horn in a car? I would love to see this.
I however do think that it might be the same in a car considerning that a ported box in a car basically is a Tapped horn ( expecially a crx) ......... this will have to be tested to be proven however.
I however do think that it might be the same in a car considerning that a ported box in a car basically is a Tapped horn ( expecially a crx) ......... this will have to be tested to be proven however.
ask Cecco or the perfect tones guys, Justin specifically, he was crazy about all these horn and bandpass type enclosures.
some guys in the US tried it as well, that is where we got the idea from. they said you will get the same result, we didnt believe it. Then we tried it on our own and after a ton of work guess what we got..........the same result as a regular ported box.
we tried this in a 4door suv and a family minivan.
i agree, a ported box in a hatch car is a trapped horn in itself.
but over the years i've grown to belive that you are better off putting in your efforts in trying to utilize the pressure inside the box vs. trying to do anything to the other side of the cone. i dont believe that trying to increase the pressure inside the box is it.
once me and Les tried sorts of loading walls to utilize the other side of the cone, the results were either worse or same as a regular ported box.
i think there are many other variables that get over looked with respect to SPL when people begin to live in theoretical believes. i believe the answer lies INSIDE the box, that is the last and only place we have control over, at least to some degree.
the theory works well in an exteme car where the whole car is the box. this doesnt work in SS or Street however.
Mr. dogbaker, tell us more about standing waves and how to overcome the phenomenon in order to increase SPL. This is what I want to know.
11-15-2010, 11:32 AM
#40
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
The loudest bass system period! Danley Matter Horn: 140 dB at 100’ free field!
Matterhorn
Danley Sound Labs Matterhorn: As Heart-Pounding As The Disneyland Rollercoaster | Gearwire
the video: YouTube - The Matterhorn - Worlds Largest Subwoofer
Loudest Production Bass Bin in the World the Danely TH-812: 152db free field – not in a car – not acoustically coupled... just drop this in a large van and watch the SPL go even higher!
SPL: 152db free field
Sensitivity 110dB
Wattage: 16,000 Watts Continuous
DANLEY | TAPPED HORN SUBWOOFER 812
Tom Danley is a NASA Scientist dozens of patents – his patents on tapped horn finely detail the math that couples the energy radiating from both sides of the drivers – ported systems do not even compare... they block the back waves from meeting the front side and when the port is opened at tuning, if you will, the energy exiting the box via the port meets the front wave 180 degrees out of phase adding another 12dB (or two orders) of roll off over sealed boxes making them a 24dB – forth order high-pass system etc...
Beyond these points – the group delays of tapped horns are vastly improved over both ported and sealed! As are the impulse scores... As are system efficiencies...
And one more point worth mentioning the Xmax utilization is often 20-30% less therefore improving power handling and reducing IMD, THD and general phase distortions...
It’s clear that you haven’t done one bit or real research on this topic!
