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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
11-15-2010, 11:36 AM
#41
Tapped Horn by Danley
The loudest bass system period! Danley Matter Horn: 140 dB at 100’ free field!
Matterhorn
Danley Sound Labs Matterhorn: As Heart-Pounding As The Disneyland Rollercoaster | Gearwire
the video: YouTube - The Matterhorn - Worlds Largest Subwoofer
Loudest Production Bass Bin in the World the Danely TH-812: 152db free field – not in a car – not acoustically coupled... just drop this in a large van and watch the SPL go even higher!
SPL: 152db free field
Sensitivity 110dB
Wattage: 16,000 Watts Continuous
DANLEY | TAPPED HORN SUBWOOFER 812
Tom Danley is a NASA Scientist dozens of patents – his patents on tapped horn finely detail the math that couples the energy radiating from both sides of the drivers – ported systems do not even compare... they block the back waves from meeting the front side and when the port is opened at tuning, if you will, the energy exiting the box via the port meets the front wave 180 degrees out of phase adding another 12dB (or two orders) of roll off over sealed boxes making them a 24dB – forth order high-pass system etc...
Beyond these points – the group delays of tapped horns are vastly improved over both ported and sealed! As are the impulse scores... As are system efficiencies...
And one more point worth mentioning the Xmax utilization is often 20-30% less therefore improving power handling and reducing IMD, THD and general phase distortions...
It’s clear that you haven’t done one bit or real research on this topic!
The loudest bass system period! Danley Matter Horn: 140 dB at 100’ free field!
Matterhorn
Danley Sound Labs Matterhorn: As Heart-Pounding As The Disneyland Rollercoaster | Gearwire
the video: YouTube - The Matterhorn - Worlds Largest Subwoofer
Loudest Production Bass Bin in the World the Danely TH-812: 152db free field – not in a car – not acoustically coupled... just drop this in a large van and watch the SPL go even higher!
SPL: 152db free field
Sensitivity 110dB
Wattage: 16,000 Watts Continuous
DANLEY | TAPPED HORN SUBWOOFER 812
Tom Danley is a NASA Scientist dozens of patents – his patents on tapped horn finely detail the math that couples the energy radiating from both sides of the drivers – ported systems do not even compare... they block the back waves from meeting the front side and when the port is opened at tuning, if you will, the energy exiting the box via the port meets the front wave 180 degrees out of phase adding another 12dB (or two orders) of roll off over sealed boxes making them a 24dB – forth order high-pass system etc...
Beyond these points – the group delays of tapped horns are vastly improved over both ported and sealed! As are the impulse scores... As are system efficiencies...
And one more point worth mentioning the Xmax utilization is often 20-30% less therefore improving power handling and reducing IMD, THD and general phase distortions...
It’s clear that you haven’t done one bit or real research on this topic!
11-15-2010, 11:37 AM
#42
so i went on their website anyways, and just by looking at their box design i can tell you 2 things,
1. they are far from revolutionary (more so just fancy'ly named)
2. they would not out perform a regular ported box in a car audio SPL application.
1. they are far from revolutionary (more so just fancy'ly named)
2. they would not out perform a regular ported box in a car audio SPL application.
11-15-2010, 11:39 AM
#43
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
we did this a long time ago. we tried a trapped horn with 2 12's and 4 12's.
ask Cecco or the perfect tones guys, Justin specifically, he was crazy about all these horn and bandpass type enclosures.
some guys in the US tried it as well, that is where we got the idea from. they said you will get the same result, we didnt believe it. Then we tried it on our own and after a ton of work guess what we got..........the same result as a regular ported box.
we tried this in a 4door suv and a family minivan.
i agree, a ported box in a hatch car is a trapped horn in itself.
but over the years i've grown to belive that you are better off putting in your efforts in trying to utilize the pressure inside the box vs. trying to do anything to the other side of the cone. i dont believe that trying to increase the pressure inside the box is it.
once me and Les tried sorts of loading walls to utilize the other side of the cone, the results were either worse or same as a regular ported box.
i think there are many other variables that get over looked with respect to SPL when people begin to live in theoretical believes. i believe the answer lies INSIDE the box, that is the last and only place we have control over, at least to some degree.
the theory works well in an exteme car where the whole car is the box. this doesnt work in SS or Street however.
Mr. dogbaker, tell us more about standing waves and how to overcome the phenomenon in order to increase SPL. This is what I want to know.
ask Cecco or the perfect tones guys, Justin specifically, he was crazy about all these horn and bandpass type enclosures.
some guys in the US tried it as well, that is where we got the idea from. they said you will get the same result, we didnt believe it. Then we tried it on our own and after a ton of work guess what we got..........the same result as a regular ported box.
we tried this in a 4door suv and a family minivan.
i agree, a ported box in a hatch car is a trapped horn in itself.
but over the years i've grown to belive that you are better off putting in your efforts in trying to utilize the pressure inside the box vs. trying to do anything to the other side of the cone. i dont believe that trying to increase the pressure inside the box is it.
once me and Les tried sorts of loading walls to utilize the other side of the cone, the results were either worse or same as a regular ported box.
i think there are many other variables that get over looked with respect to SPL when people begin to live in theoretical believes. i believe the answer lies INSIDE the box, that is the last and only place we have control over, at least to some degree.
the theory works well in an exteme car where the whole car is the box. this doesnt work in SS or Street however.
Mr. dogbaker, tell us more about standing waves and how to overcome the phenomenon in order to increase SPL. This is what I want to know.
Nothing like a ported - at all! Nothing! More like a transmission line with a horn but way smaller - ...
Please check out Danley Sound Labs - they have all EASE drawings and CADs for there products...
There is no software support to design these boxes - you have to know someone that has access to test gear and has read the patent to even start to design your first prototype!
I just happen to be that guy... I have hit 148dB using a single 8 @ 69Hz in a WRX, using an MTX driver at Tapped Horn enclosure and DD Amp set to output 500 Watts RMS...
I built it 5-years ago and it was witness buy 80 students!
11-15-2010, 11:43 AM
#44
Tapped not Trapped horn
Nothing like a ported - at all! Nothing! More like a transmission line with a horn but way smaller - ...
Please check out Danley Sound Labs - they have all EASE drawings and CADs for there products...
There is no software support to design these boxes - you have to know someone that has access to test gear and has read the patent to even start to design your first prototype!
I just happen to be that guy... I have hit 148dB using a single 8 @ 69Hz in a WRX, using an MTX driver at Tapped Horn enclosure and DD Amp set to output 500 Watts RMS...
I built it 5-years ago and it was witness buy 80 students!
Nothing like a ported - at all! Nothing! More like a transmission line with a horn but way smaller - ...
Please check out Danley Sound Labs - they have all EASE drawings and CADs for there products...
There is no software support to design these boxes - you have to know someone that has access to test gear and has read the patent to even start to design your first prototype!
I just happen to be that guy... I have hit 148dB using a single 8 @ 69Hz in a WRX, using an MTX driver at Tapped Horn enclosure and DD Amp set to output 500 Watts RMS...
I built it 5-years ago and it was witness buy 80 students!
on what device did you hit that number is the questions many will wonder.
funny you say there is no software.....software is only for those who need it. i have never used a software, yet I have seem to have done rather well.
although it is a decent number (given a decent devise was used) it's not astronomical by all accounts. I am sure I could do that or better without a program (i never use any program anyways) in a standard ported box and knowledge in my head.
if you opnly knew how many of your "students" from mobile dynamics told me i was doing everything wrong and that i need a tapped horn or some sort of a bandpass or i need to use this program or that software............none of them designed or built a box that was any louder than a straight up ported box.
and to be 100% honest I even approached mobile dynamics students and teachers about this, everyone had alot of theory but no revolutionary results. they would say "this guy did this with this box" while I had done same but with a regular square box with a port.
the most useful thing someone form mobile dynamics told me is that SPL wasn't directional.
i know u know your stuff, but there is no magical box.
when working these these unorthodox boxes you have to consider efficiency when power is increased exponentially.
surely you can do an OK SPL number with 500-1000 watts, but what happens when you put 5,000 watts to it? I can tell you what happens if you dont already know.
Last edited by Father Yuli; 11-15-2010 at 11:51 AM.
11-15-2010, 11:49 AM
#45
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
For there benefit I will help you understand Free Field vs. acoustically coupled:
If you took your bass system out of your vehicle and placed it in a field and mic'd it a one meter what do you think it would be - now move the mic to 100' and try again and that is free field...
Acoustically couple is when the air between the speaker and the mic (or a person’s ears) couples - moving in an out together etc... Like when you use head phones or in a car... In this way massive efficiencies are gained...
In an open space no such efficiencies are available as speaker system is required to compress all the air in the atmosphere of your township etc...
So when a Tapped system hits 152dB with ONLY 16000 Watts’s free field, it makes it the loudest product bass system in the world!
Don't be lazy - copy and paste the links and go learn something useful to bring to this forum - Please
!
11-15-2010, 11:54 AM
#46
It is clear that you are completely uneducated - there are people in this forum that want to learn...
For there benefit I will help you understand Free Field vs. acoustically coupled:
If you took your bass system out of your vehicle and placed it in a field and mic'd it a one meter what do you think it would be - now move the mic to 100' and try again and that is free field...
Acoustically couple is when the air between the speaker and the mic (or a person’s ears) couples - moving in an out together etc... Like when you use head phones or in a car... In this way massive efficiencies are gained...
In an open space no such efficiencies are available as speaker system is required to compress all the air in the atmosphere of your township etc...
So when a Tapped system hits 152dB with ONLY 16000 Watts’s free field, it makes it the loudest product bass system in the world!
Don't be lazy - copy and paste the links and go learn something useful to bring to this forum - Please!
For there benefit I will help you understand Free Field vs. acoustically coupled:
If you took your bass system out of your vehicle and placed it in a field and mic'd it a one meter what do you think it would be - now move the mic to 100' and try again and that is free field...
Acoustically couple is when the air between the speaker and the mic (or a person’s ears) couples - moving in an out together etc... Like when you use head phones or in a car... In this way massive efficiencies are gained...
In an open space no such efficiencies are available as speaker system is required to compress all the air in the atmosphere of your township etc...
So when a Tapped system hits 152dB with ONLY 16000 Watts’s free field, it makes it the loudest product bass system in the world!
Don't be lazy - copy and paste the links and go learn something useful to bring to this forum - Please
!yes, i am 100% un-educated. i fluked all my spl success.
but um, we arent talking about free field, i know what it is, that's why i just ignored it. i am sure it would produce an even better number in outter space.
my system probably wouldnt even be heard 100 feet away..............since it's not designed to be playing in a field, it is to produce a number in a car's cabin.
tell me about standing waves and how to deal with them.
Last edited by Father Yuli; 11-15-2010 at 11:58 AM.
11-15-2010, 12:06 PM
#47
there really is no need to turn this thread into a stain so i wont argue anymore.
all i wanted to say is that we had tried tapped horns extensivlly, it was a revolutionary idea for us back in the day. sure they sound loud as hell in a big room.
but when placed into a vehicle and powered by thousands of watts, they produced exactly the same results as a regular ported box.
there is a ton of info on these types of enclosures online, i've read it all and tried most of the designs and concepts out there...........still, results are same as a ported box.
yes, you can produce a half decent number with little power while using one of these concepts.............the bigger picture is shown when you increase power significantly, however.
i encourage you to come out to a spl competition or a test session to see how things are done, maybe it will refine your understanding of how it actually works or maybe you can give us some useful ideas.
all i wanted to say is that we had tried tapped horns extensivlly, it was a revolutionary idea for us back in the day. sure they sound loud as hell in a big room.
but when placed into a vehicle and powered by thousands of watts, they produced exactly the same results as a regular ported box.
there is a ton of info on these types of enclosures online, i've read it all and tried most of the designs and concepts out there...........still, results are same as a ported box.
yes, you can produce a half decent number with little power while using one of these concepts.............the bigger picture is shown when you increase power significantly, however.
i encourage you to come out to a spl competition or a test session to see how things are done, maybe it will refine your understanding of how it actually works or maybe you can give us some useful ideas.
Last edited by Father Yuli; 11-15-2010 at 12:12 PM.
11-15-2010, 12:39 PM
#48
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie
Why wouldn't I be serious?
You have a 30 foot garden hose and a 10 foot garden hose. You turn on the water supply to each at the same time. Do you think water will arrive at the end of each hose at the same time? Of course not! There's going to be a delay with the longer one.
Same principle applies with your speakers and their cables. Difference is we're talking extremely shorter delays than my garden hose example.
Moral of the story, use the same lengths of cable if you're running long, which in a car is a non-issue.
edit: looking through my books, I noted it there would need to be a difference of at least 100 feet of 12awg to notice anything
Originally Posted by Donnie
Why wouldn't I be serious?
You have a 30 foot garden hose and a 10 foot garden hose. You turn on the water supply to each at the same time. Do you think water will arrive at the end of each hose at the same time? Of course not! There's going to be a delay with the longer one.
Same principle applies with your speakers and their cables. Difference is we're talking extremely shorter delays than my garden hose example.
Moral of the story, use the same lengths of cable if you're running long, which in a car is a non-issue.
edit: looking through my books, I noted it there would need to be a difference of at least 100 feet of 12awg to notice anything
11-15-2010, 12:47 PM
#49
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
it's not like a ported, but will produce same result.
on what device did you hit that number is the questions many will wonder.
funny you say there is no software.....software is only for those who need it. i have never used a software, yet I have seem to have done rather well.
although it is a decent number (given a decent devise was used) it's not astronomical by all accounts. I am sure I could do that or better without a program (i never use any program anyways) in a standard ported box and knowledge in my head.
if you opnly knew how many of your "students" from mobile dynamics told me i was doing everything wrong and that i need a tapped horn or some sort of a bandpass or i need to use this program or that software............none of them designed or built a box that was any louder than a straight up ported box.
and to be 100% honest I even approached mobile dynamics students and teachers about this, everyone had alot of theory but no revolutionary results. they would say "this guy did this with this box" while I had done same but with a regular square box with a port.
the most useful thing someone form mobile dynamics told me is that SPL wasn't directional.
i know u know your stuff, but there is no magical box.
when working these these unorthodox boxes you have to consider efficiency when power is increased exponentially.
surely you can do an OK SPL number with 500-1000 watts, but what happens when you put 5,000 watts to it? I can tell you what happens if you dont already know.
on what device did you hit that number is the questions many will wonder.
funny you say there is no software.....software is only for those who need it. i have never used a software, yet I have seem to have done rather well.
although it is a decent number (given a decent devise was used) it's not astronomical by all accounts. I am sure I could do that or better without a program (i never use any program anyways) in a standard ported box and knowledge in my head.
if you opnly knew how many of your "students" from mobile dynamics told me i was doing everything wrong and that i need a tapped horn or some sort of a bandpass or i need to use this program or that software............none of them designed or built a box that was any louder than a straight up ported box.
and to be 100% honest I even approached mobile dynamics students and teachers about this, everyone had alot of theory but no revolutionary results. they would say "this guy did this with this box" while I had done same but with a regular square box with a port.
the most useful thing someone form mobile dynamics told me is that SPL wasn't directional.
i know u know your stuff, but there is no magical box.
when working these these unorthodox boxes you have to consider efficiency when power is increased exponentially.
surely you can do an OK SPL number with 500-1000 watts, but what happens when you put 5,000 watts to it? I can tell you what happens if you dont already know.
I am an Engineer and we do you software as a tool but use objective measurement to validate our progressions and narrow our assumptions...
With this we couple our education and experiences and turn to other educated people to additional guidance and assistance when needed... we travel around the world to trade shows, clinics, gain memberships to AES and a like and exchange and share trade papers weekly...
If you were asked to prove on paper using math as the language, how you achieve your score - you couldn't and that is why I said that you are guessing and have been lucky that others have guided you to where you are - you have in fact strung together a design approach that is based on science, developed from others - you may call them rules of thumb or intuition or subjective trial and error etc... but it has been the knowledge of others above you that has made it possible - you didn't design your own amps and you didn't design you drivers and you didn't design your head-unit and you didn't design your bass system, but you did install them all as guided by others!
And buy the way my 8” tapped horn was a linear from 33Hz – 800Hz – it could actually output great sounding music!
Imagine what a 15” would have hit!
By the way I do design my own amps, preamps, speakers and enclosure - and for not just for my self but also for major audio manufacturers...
11-15-2010, 12:49 PM
#50
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 216
I have to agree with Yuli, you must understand that he is talking about a small car like the CRX, in which the box size and shape affects everything. I have also built a couple tapped horns back in days with the same goal and they were a fail, is is actually quite frustrating when you calculate wavelengths, resonant frequency, put that in a car and it ends up quieter.
I'm building a tapped horn inside a 88 E-150, let's see how it goes.
I'm building a tapped horn inside a 88 E-150, let's see how it goes.
