Imaging Q
02-27-2004, 11:05 PM
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mark has midbass drivers where the factory kicks are. Yes having your speakers that far away helps your imaging but his symetrical dash helps alot as well. Gary Biggs also has a symetrical dash with kicks and his car sounds good from both seats.
As for depth, the car that stood out in my mind was Scott Buwalda's Altima, his car impressed me more than any other in that aspect at Finals. His setup is rather plain at first sight, midbass in factory location, dome mid in kick, tweets in a pillar. Theoretically his car should sound bad, but it sounds great, but I think he knows how to tune better than most out there.
As for depth, the car that stood out in my mind was Scott Buwalda's Altima, his car impressed me more than any other in that aspect at Finals. His setup is rather plain at first sight, midbass in factory location, dome mid in kick, tweets in a pillar. Theoretically his car should sound bad, but it sounds great, but I think he knows how to tune better than most out there.
02-28-2004, 11:13 AM
#12
ya Scotts car did sound nice, but (and I hate to say it) I want more out of my car. Its just personal taste of course. His car sounded great, but my ears felt there was something missing. Garys car sounded better in my mind, could have been the tracks they were playing idono?
03-01-2004, 10:37 AM
#13
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 206
Ok here's one to think about
If you have equal path lengths from each speaker to your head and, each speaker is putting out the same level ect ect then where will the image be ?
Directly in front of you rigth......
Now the way imaging is judged (I know we are not all competitors) is the center is the center of the sound stage. Which means if your sound width is 6 feet wide then three feet should be on your left, 3 feet on your rigth of your center.
If you made your path lengths equal then that center point will be in front of you and the three feet are still on either side. I have never heard a car that has pulled that on off ever.
Most have a stage like this
Left is at the door, Center is directly in front of me, and rigth is on the opposite door. Not a very well balanced stage. Infact in that example the stage center should have been in the middle of the car. with this example thier usually is a BIG gap (2-3 feet) between center and rigth, and a small one between left and center (inches upto a foot)
Because you will find it extremly difficult to be able to get a stage to sound 3 feet outside the door closest to you then do you really want equal path lengths. I say no.....well kind of.
What you really want to do is move the center over to the center of your outside referance points (far left and far rigth) So in that example I gave you the center should be center dash.
A few ways you can do this
1: Balance the left and rigth over to the rigth
2: Move the rigth speaker closer to you
3: Move the left speaker farther away for you (good luck)
4: Time align/phase align see the other posts
1, 2, and 3 will all F up the passenger side of that car but will make your drivers side alot better. It a big catch 22.
Try it at home with a home system. Place your speakers apart, and grab a chair.
Put it in the center and the center is in the center
sit on the rigth and the center again moves with you so that it is just like the example above. The same will happen of the rigth side.
So how do you fix it ?, you equalize path lengths
Then you just end up sitting in the middle again.
Ideally heres what you want to do to make both seats image at top scoring level (IASCA standard)
1: Move speakers as far apart (width)as possible
2: Move the speakers as far away from you as possible (length)
and here's the BIG one
3: move your listeners both to the middle point of the speakers.
YES you read correctly MOVE both listeners to the middle of the car.
This way both (pass and drivers) ears are equal from left and rigth, and have "equal path lengths" from left and rigth, but they are not sitting in front of a speaker causing the off center, center.
Now its not perfect but it make a dramitic differance.
I can hear you now.
"Ya rigth Jamie move the listeners to the center is the car, I'll have to move my seats in. What nut would do that ?"
Welcome to the worlds of Gary Biggs, and Mark Eldridge..........................
If you see me anywhere I can go on for days about this stuff
If you have equal path lengths from each speaker to your head and, each speaker is putting out the same level ect ect then where will the image be ?
Directly in front of you rigth......
Now the way imaging is judged (I know we are not all competitors) is the center is the center of the sound stage. Which means if your sound width is 6 feet wide then three feet should be on your left, 3 feet on your rigth of your center.
If you made your path lengths equal then that center point will be in front of you and the three feet are still on either side. I have never heard a car that has pulled that on off ever.
Most have a stage like this
Left is at the door, Center is directly in front of me, and rigth is on the opposite door. Not a very well balanced stage. Infact in that example the stage center should have been in the middle of the car. with this example thier usually is a BIG gap (2-3 feet) between center and rigth, and a small one between left and center (inches upto a foot)
Because you will find it extremly difficult to be able to get a stage to sound 3 feet outside the door closest to you then do you really want equal path lengths. I say no.....well kind of.
What you really want to do is move the center over to the center of your outside referance points (far left and far rigth) So in that example I gave you the center should be center dash.
A few ways you can do this
1: Balance the left and rigth over to the rigth
2: Move the rigth speaker closer to you
3: Move the left speaker farther away for you (good luck)
4: Time align/phase align see the other posts
1, 2, and 3 will all F up the passenger side of that car but will make your drivers side alot better. It a big catch 22.
Try it at home with a home system. Place your speakers apart, and grab a chair.
Put it in the center and the center is in the center
sit on the rigth and the center again moves with you so that it is just like the example above. The same will happen of the rigth side.
So how do you fix it ?, you equalize path lengths
Then you just end up sitting in the middle again.
Ideally heres what you want to do to make both seats image at top scoring level (IASCA standard)
1: Move speakers as far apart (width)as possible
2: Move the speakers as far away from you as possible (length)
and here's the BIG one
3: move your listeners both to the middle point of the speakers.
YES you read correctly MOVE both listeners to the middle of the car.
This way both (pass and drivers) ears are equal from left and rigth, and have "equal path lengths" from left and rigth, but they are not sitting in front of a speaker causing the off center, center.
Now its not perfect but it make a dramitic differance.
I can hear you now.
"Ya rigth Jamie move the listeners to the center is the car, I'll have to move my seats in. What nut would do that ?"
Welcome to the worlds of Gary Biggs, and Mark Eldridge..........................
If you see me anywhere I can go on for days about this stuff
03-01-2004, 03:29 PM
#14
Ya i had a chance to listen to a few cars that did this to their seats (including those mentioned above) but as I am a Rookie this season I am not allowed to modify my seats at all. My path length are actully pretty good in my car as it is (just starting the install now). But Im sure that willl help me out next year.
03-03-2004, 10:10 AM
#15
Originally posted by Impala Builder:
Most have a stage like this
Left is at the door, Center is directly in front of me, and rigth is on the opposite door. Not a very well balanced stage. Infact in that example the stage center should have been in the middle of the car. with this example thier usually is a BIG gap (2-3 feet) between center and rigth, and a small one between left and center (inches upto a foot)
Most have a stage like this
Left is at the door, Center is directly in front of me, and rigth is on the opposite door. Not a very well balanced stage. Infact in that example the stage center should have been in the middle of the car. with this example thier usually is a BIG gap (2-3 feet) between center and rigth, and a small one between left and center (inches upto a foot)
His car images center...left is door, right is door, depth is out on the hood and height is eye level. I'm not saying it's perfect but he pulls some AWESOME numbers for his sound score. It's easily one of the best cars I've ever heard, I'm really a big fan of the sound stage.
03-03-2004, 10:12 AM
#16
Originally posted by DWVW:
Mark has midbass drivers where the factory kicks are. Yes having your speakers that far away helps your imaging but his symetrical dash helps alot as well. Gary Biggs also has a symetrical dash with kicks and his car sounds good from both seats.
As for depth, the car that stood out in my mind was Scott Buwalda's Altima, his car impressed me more than any other in that aspect at Finals. His setup is rather plain at first sight, midbass in factory location, dome mid in kick, tweets in a pillar. Theoretically his car should sound bad, but it sounds great, but I think he knows how to tune better than most out there.
Mark has midbass drivers where the factory kicks are. Yes having your speakers that far away helps your imaging but his symetrical dash helps alot as well. Gary Biggs also has a symetrical dash with kicks and his car sounds good from both seats.
As for depth, the car that stood out in my mind was Scott Buwalda's Altima, his car impressed me more than any other in that aspect at Finals. His setup is rather plain at first sight, midbass in factory location, dome mid in kick, tweets in a pillar. Theoretically his car should sound bad, but it sounds great, but I think he knows how to tune better than most out there.
03-17-2004, 03:24 PM
#18
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
To acheive good imaging in a car you need a GOOD surface for the Speakers to TRAVEL on. Kicks need a good GLOVE box to travel up towards the CEILING... Same with the drivers side kicks, they need a good symetrical surface to travel up...even door handles help in Imaging and Ambience.
[img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
03-17-2004, 11:49 PM
#19
^^^ my stage height is due to the location of my tweets and dash shape. the midrange width and acuracy is also due to the angle in which they are mounted.i'm working on my midbass to further reinforce the proper location of instuments in my sound stage. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
Install is 95%. Even the best equipment can sound like a$$ in a poor install Eg:the yellow(Arc & Rainbow) chev extended cab @ iasca finals(upstairs) [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img] looked cool but lacked any imaging
Install is 95%. Even the best equipment can sound like a$$ in a poor install Eg:the yellow(Arc & Rainbow) chev extended cab @ iasca finals(upstairs) [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img] looked cool but lacked any imaging
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