Opinions are needed and would be greatly appreciated

I'm very disappointed with the imaging with my kicks recently just had made for my 07 Honda Fit. I've done everything possible to make the imagine balanced - even took the tweeter out and moved it to the a pillar. After about 10-20 position changes I found the perfect sweetspot! I set it off axis facing mostly backwards towards the windshield.

Now my door are well dynamated and sound pretty decent! Since the Fit is is such a small car the imaging from the doors is pretty low.

Here is what I'd like to create over the next 5-10 months.

Use either all 3 focal speakers on the dash or just 2. See the illustration to better explain what I mean.

One other thing I have to make clear is the enclosure will be separate from the existing A pillar panel. I would have to fit it to the hole and mold around it! The reason is because the OEM panel have built it air bags.

I'm using the 100KP's and shortly getting the 165KBE's. Also changing to one AudioControl DQS from an overdrive and EQL. The rest of the setup is staying the same with amps, subs and head unit.

This will be my first attempt to built proper enclosures on my own and I imagine I will require much help!

Anyone got other Ideas?

Thanks everyone!

 

well if it has built in air bags i sure hope you plan to get rid of them or wear a helmet as them speakers or gonna get projected pretty hard in an accident

 

Here's what I have. The tweeters are off axis and tilted towards the windshield. The mids are aimed at the interior light. After playing with crossover points and gains etc, the stage and image are quite impressive.

 

Thanks guys.

That wouldn't be all that great if the speaker pod came flying at my head.

If I do go ahead with this design - Can I put both the 4" and 6" in the same air space or should they be sealed in their own chamber?

I may just disable the airbags up in that location!

Thanks
J

 

Here's the thing about "imaging" and your stage. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but there is something to be said for knowing this stuff if you're into the "sq" world.

There are three primary concepts that need to be understood.

1. IID - Inter-aural Intensity Differences
2. ITD - Inter-aural Time Differences
3. HRTF - Head-Related Transfer Function

IID and ITD relate to stage width, by which I refer to the localization of sound along the horizontal axis. HRTF relates to stage height, by which I refer to the localization of sound along the vertical axis.

IID refers to the difference in sound intensity when compared between the left and right ear. By sound intensity, we are referring to SPL and frequency response. In a very simple sense, if SPL at a given frequency is higher at the left ear than the right, we will interpret the sound as coming from the left side. A practical application of this concept: as the driver, you are usually much closer to the left channel than the right channel and, consequently, SPL at your ears is higher from the left channel than the right. As such, your whole stage will be sound smeared with a strong pull to the left. IID is a dominant part of horizonatl sound localization above 1-2 kHz, roughly around the frequency at which the wavelength becomes shorter than the distance between your right and left ear. Again, a practical application of this concept: you have your tweeters crossed over at 2-3 kHz, and the one on the left side is substantially closer to you than the one on the right. Your stage will obviously be smeared to the left. How to correct this? Using an EQ with L/R capabilities, you'll have to cut above your xover point for the left channels. Use of a balance **** gives you much the same effect (although balance ***** usually work for the channels as a whole rather than a range of frequences).

ITD refers to the difference in arrival time between your left and right channel. You may be familiar with another term in the same vein: PLD, or Path Length Differences. In short: you want to minimize the differences in arrival time between your left and right channel. Practical Application: again, as the driver, the whole left channel is usually much closer to you than the right side. The left channel, being the one that arrives at your ear much earlier, can be corrected by utilizing some time alignment to delay the whole left channel. ITD is most dominant in the midbass and midrange. This is a pretty simple concept, I think.

IID and ITD are pretty constant: once you have the stage width right, you can swap people in and out all day and have almost zero issues. However, stage height can change from person to person. This is a function of HRTF, which implies that our localization of sound along the vertical axis is dependent on how sound is shaped by our torso, head, pina, etc. The easy way to get stage height is move everything upwards in the vehicle until you've gotten the stage height that you like, but this is not physically very easy to do. So the next best step is to compensate for stage height electronically. By careful adjustments using a L/R EQ, you can manipulate stage height (this is well documented in an AES article if you're interested in more specifics on HRTF inversion and similar ideas). HRTF is most dominant above around 1kHz, so time for another practical application: we create stage height by manipulating speakers whose bandwidth falls above 1kHz. Perhaps you're familiar with the fallacy that the tweeter and midrange should be as close as possible; if we can't localize sounds below 1kHz in the vertical axis, does it really matter if they are right on top of one another? The answer is a resounding no.

Now, for the practical application that you're really looking for: your install. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd guess that your tweeter handles the absolute top end (say, 4kHz or higher?) and your midrange handles where your tweeter leaves off till down to say 200-300 Hz. You'll have to confirm this for me, but we can draw a few conclusions. First, the reason your sound stage sounds down is that your midrange (which does overlap that 1kHz frequency I mentioned as critical to HRTF) is physically installed down lower. How can you correct this? As discussed above, you'll have to EQ these issues out. Your tweeter is also in the kicks right now, so you can either EQ that as well or physically move it up to the a-pillars. The obvious hinderance in moving it up is that you will have to deal with early reflections from the glass and dash; the reflections and diffraction from a kickpanel installation are much easier to manage, in my opinion. You can combat this with a dash mat, though, if you're willing to do so.

I'm sure I missed something I wanted to say, but that should give you a nice start.

 

i posted your problem back in april. my front end is done, just have to tune out that last 10%. but so far its working out great.

these are what i based my frontend on. courtesy of jason gay from a show in tiawan ,enjoy

last 3 pics are my set up. 3/4 dome 5" mid and 6.5 bass

 

WR125's in an earlier install? How did you like them there? I have had quite a few experiences with them and the FR's.

 

you my friend you are hardcore. l chose because they are touted as all range making x over points very compensating. l want to try to cross them lower, 100 right now. as u mentioned my dash mat removes any lower sounds raising hieght. l feel just as good as any euro set, with retail mark up.

based on tiawan l feel this is the way sq cars will go. kickpanels just dont seem the ansewer anymore when youve done the dash

 

From a sound point of view. I think in most cars, kicks will yield better SQ then the dash. The problem is with install not product. For those of you who read CA&E will have seen the set up in Biggs car. Simple 2 way system mounted in the kick panels. I've had the chance to listen to his car on a few occasions. His stage height was very good. And he had about the best depth of stage I've ever heard. All people need to do is set a goal for the sound in there car and work toward it. You may (more like will) have to give things up to achieve others but that’s what has to be done in the average car environment. I've found that another problem is lack knowledge. I don’t know haw many people who I've talked with that insist on pointing speakers in a cretin direction (regardless of brand or type) because someone told them it was best. Or using an RTA to tune your car (totally pointless) in my personal car, kicks are the best location in the car for a few acoustical reasons. But I have other priorities for the car. So I had to sacrifice in a few SQ areas to gain in others that I felt were more to my taste.

 

l wonder how the regal would show against what jay heard in tiawan. regals have no dash so his options are limited. gary has said he is coming out with a new car. will he stick with kicks, they are a tried and true winning combo.

every car and its components are different, as well as opinions. they beauty of sq. i hope i never outscore you fozz as i know only half as much as you. no sarcasm intended.

peterborogh's top 10, see you there.