A question on subs and their differences
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,860
I'm sorry but regarding the last 2 posts by SubSonic, I wouldn't listen to a thing he posted. Obviously someone went to the JBL Labotomy Luncheon... 
JBL makes a competent driver but they are hardly the be-all end-all.
For the OP - lets do a different comparison. Let's compare a Uniroyal and a Pirelli tire. Same size and speed rating. Will the Pirelli (at likely twice the price or more of the Uniroyal) be 'better' than the Uniroyal? In what way exactly? Does it matter if installed on a Chevette? How about a Corvette?
Similarly, let us consider a piano and a guitar. They can play many of the same notes but don't sound the same at all. Which sounds better? Impossible to say.
What can you expect from a more expensive speaker? Better build quality, exotic materials, more power handling? Sometimes but not always. Does it guarantee it "sounds better" (whatever that means)? Rarely. Some of the most popular "SQ subwoofers" have been pretty humble in build, for example the Oz 250L and Image Dynamics IDQ line. Both those lines were pretty modest in price too so one doesn't have to drain the bank account for world class sound.
So what is one left with? Listening. You need to go out and listen to speakers. They are the single most important component in your stereo and they are the single component that sounds the most different from brand to brand and model to model. If you can't listen to it, well then you have to decide who you can trust to give you good information - and I'll tell ya that it generally shouldn't be the guy saying one brand rules over all others..
My 10c.
JBL makes a competent driver but they are hardly the be-all end-all.For the OP - lets do a different comparison. Let's compare a Uniroyal and a Pirelli tire. Same size and speed rating. Will the Pirelli (at likely twice the price or more of the Uniroyal) be 'better' than the Uniroyal? In what way exactly? Does it matter if installed on a Chevette? How about a Corvette?
Similarly, let us consider a piano and a guitar. They can play many of the same notes but don't sound the same at all. Which sounds better? Impossible to say.
What can you expect from a more expensive speaker? Better build quality, exotic materials, more power handling? Sometimes but not always. Does it guarantee it "sounds better" (whatever that means)? Rarely. Some of the most popular "SQ subwoofers" have been pretty humble in build, for example the Oz 250L and Image Dynamics IDQ line. Both those lines were pretty modest in price too so one doesn't have to drain the bank account for world class sound.
So what is one left with? Listening. You need to go out and listen to speakers. They are the single most important component in your stereo and they are the single component that sounds the most different from brand to brand and model to model. If you can't listen to it, well then you have to decide who you can trust to give you good information - and I'll tell ya that it generally shouldn't be the guy saying one brand rules over all others..
My 10c.
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 73
Then what should I use? The settings done by Auto TA and EQ sound way more natural and 'warm' than what I used to set manually...Dont really have faith in my own abilities or know-how to actually set it up manually AND have it good enough to be better than the auto thingy....any suggestions on this??
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 73
I'm sorry but regarding the last 2 posts by SubSonic, I wouldn't listen to a thing he posted. Obviously someone went to the JBL Labotomy Luncheon... JBL makes a competent driver but they are hardly the be-all end-all.
For the OP - lets do a different comparison. Let's compare a Uniroyal and a Pirelli tire. Same size and speed rating. Will the Pirelli (at likely twice the price or more of the Uniroyal) be 'better' than the Uniroyal? In what way exactly? Does it matter if installed on a Chevette? How about a Corvette?
Similarly, let us consider a piano and a guitar. They can play many of the same notes but don't sound the same at all. Which sounds better? Impossible to say.
What can you expect from a more expensive speaker? Better build quality, exotic materials, more power handling? Sometimes but not always. Does it guarantee it "sounds better" (whatever that means)? Rarely. Some of the most popular "SQ subwoofers" have been pretty humble in build, for example the Oz 250L and Image Dynamics IDQ line. Both those lines were pretty modest in price too so one doesn't have to drain the bank account for world class sound.
So what is one left with? Listening. You need to go out and listen to speakers. They are the single most important component in your stereo and they are the single component that sounds the most different from brand to brand and model to model. If you can't listen to it, well then you have to decide who you can trust to give you good information - and I'll tell ya that it generally shouldn't be the guy saying one brand rules over all others..
My 10c.
JBL makes a competent driver but they are hardly the be-all end-all.For the OP - lets do a different comparison. Let's compare a Uniroyal and a Pirelli tire. Same size and speed rating. Will the Pirelli (at likely twice the price or more of the Uniroyal) be 'better' than the Uniroyal? In what way exactly? Does it matter if installed on a Chevette? How about a Corvette?
Similarly, let us consider a piano and a guitar. They can play many of the same notes but don't sound the same at all. Which sounds better? Impossible to say.
What can you expect from a more expensive speaker? Better build quality, exotic materials, more power handling? Sometimes but not always. Does it guarantee it "sounds better" (whatever that means)? Rarely. Some of the most popular "SQ subwoofers" have been pretty humble in build, for example the Oz 250L and Image Dynamics IDQ line. Both those lines were pretty modest in price too so one doesn't have to drain the bank account for world class sound.
So what is one left with? Listening. You need to go out and listen to speakers. They are the single most important component in your stereo and they are the single component that sounds the most different from brand to brand and model to model. If you can't listen to it, well then you have to decide who you can trust to give you good information - and I'll tell ya that it generally shouldn't be the guy saying one brand rules over all others..
My 10c.
I agree, and that is one of the basic problems I am facing. Where i live, NO one (shops) carry big brand name products. I simply cannot listen to any of the speakers/components I am buying, thats why I am looking for opinions and will buy based on that alone.
Regarding subs, I 'think' they are the hardest to judge in terms of difference (I dont even know what to look for) thats why all I ask is to suggest the best sub in the price range of 300 to 500 dollars. Same goes for my components as well as the amps and head unit. Suggestions and opinions matter the most for me.
Just to let you in, I am into all kinds of music genres, listen to at least 3 different languages of singing (which means very different instruments used as well, for example, arabic 'tabla'), so I need the most transparent system I can buy for this price range....all expert suggestions are welcome and needed
Administrator
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,860
I am surprised that between Calgary and Edmonton you can't listen to all but the most exotic brands.
My personal opinion on, specifically, subbass is that too many people spend too much time on it. Get a pair of decent* 10s in a well built box and they will do 95% of what most people need them to do.
*decent: for ~$150-250 a woofer you're going to get similar quality from any major name brand. Pick one.
My personal opinion on, specifically, subbass is that too many people spend too much time on it. Get a pair of decent* 10s in a well built box and they will do 95% of what most people need them to do.
*decent: for ~$150-250 a woofer you're going to get similar quality from any major name brand. Pick one.
you do realize Team JBL has been #1 for what 5 or 6 years
strait and have won more SQ/SQL trophies than any other car audio
competition team in history.....with the use of the Wgti subs
I beleive JBL has more than proven themselves and their product
to be #1
I have been building enclosures for subs for 22 years and I have
never ever heard a sub sound like the Wgti's
I was completely F'n shocked on the SQ they put out
and how tight they are
if you ever get out this way give me a shout
we can demo each others systems and see....
Yankee
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
woofers and SQ..... wayyyyy too much time is spent languishing over this. I have been as happy with a $30 pair of kickers (1988 dollars), as I was with a $300 (or whatever it was I paid for it?) RE SX 18", as I was with a $1000 Aliante. Now I am not saying the performance of the expensive drivers didn't out pace the cheapies but there is A LOT to be said for proper crossovers, proper power levels, and installation, especially in subs. In an SQ build subwoofers is where you CAN cheep out IMO. A Kicker CVR (~$100 US) will be just fine in a SQ system (and could even win competitions) as long as you dont try to do too much with it.
Here is a provocative statement, I dont fully believe it but think about it.... There isn't that much SQ below 50 Hz... I say the magic is from 80 Hz and up, below 50 there is a lot of mush (what was it DWVW used to call it burping and farting?). The magic is in the lower midbass and the interface between drivers.
I would rather have a $1000 comp set with a $100 woofer than a $1000 woofer with a $200 comp set
Here is a provocative statement, I dont fully believe it but think about it.... There isn't that much SQ below 50 Hz... I say the magic is from 80 Hz and up, below 50 there is a lot of mush (what was it DWVW used to call it burping and farting?). The magic is in the lower midbass and the interface between drivers.
I would rather have a $1000 comp set with a $100 woofer than a $1000 woofer with a $200 comp set
Administrator
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,860
you do realize Team JBL has been #1 for what 5 or 6 years
strait and have won more SQ/SQL trophies than any other car audio
competition team in history.....with the use of the Wgti subs
I beleive JBL has more than proven themselves and their product
to be #1
I have been building enclosures for subs for 22 years and I have
never ever heard a sub sound like the Wgti's
I was completely F'n shocked on the SQ they put out
and how tight they are
if you ever get out this way give me a shout
we can demo each others systems and see....
strait and have won more SQ/SQL trophies than any other car audio
competition team in history.....with the use of the Wgti subs
I beleive JBL has more than proven themselves and their product
to be #1
I have been building enclosures for subs for 22 years and I have
never ever heard a sub sound like the Wgti's
I was completely F'n shocked on the SQ they put out
and how tight they are
if you ever get out this way give me a shout
we can demo each others systems and see....
Yeah as soon as JBL hired Biggs and Eldridge away from Kicker, JBL started "winning everything". Gary and Mark were winners before, JBL merely made a marketing move.
I agree with John and have said many times in the past - if you want better bass, buy better midbass. People focus way too much on the bottom octave.
I wouldn't loose too much sleep over it... auditioning speakers from a sound board at a shop is not the best way to decide how good a set of speakers will sound in your car, anyway...
Instead I'd look at the install & airspace available; then try to match a speaker set that will work in it's enclosure
and give you the bandwidth you want...
check out winisd to simulate boxes, response curves, ect...
0 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 3
it is not always the $$$ tag that makes the difference in
sound...
quality in materials,cone shape and magnetic force exc
all have an effect on performance
I have heard some really expensive woofers that
were a complete let down...the JL audio W12's were the
biggest dissapointment that I have spent my money on
the biggest difference I have seen yet between woofers
is comparing ANY woofer to a JBL WGTI with the differential
drive design...
there is a voice coil at each end of the former..each with
it's own magnetic gap...
at low power both coils drive the woofers cone..
as power increases one coil rides completely out
of it's magnetic gap while force is still applied by the
other coil...
at extreame high power each coil enter's the other coils
magnetic gap producing magnetic braking..
bassically what this does is make the bass rock solid tight
and the more power you push into them the tighter the sound
becomes...having a current servo amplifier driving them produces
bass that drops any jaw
these woofers have dominated the SQ and SQL comps since
their release back in 2002/2003
awsome design..I am giving my GTI's well over 2X their rated
RMS and they take it very well...
any regular woofer design in my mind is now obsolete
and has no place in my install
for SQ with the right set up woofer size is not really an issue..
Garry Biggs (team JBL) has won the International Sound Quality
trophy 5 or 6 years in a row with a pair of W15gti subs in sealed
enclosures...
personally I like the sound of my 10"...they are very tight and
do not over power my components...
woofer size depends on your personal listening taste
sound...
quality in materials,cone shape and magnetic force exc
all have an effect on performance
I have heard some really expensive woofers that
were a complete let down...the JL audio W12's were the
biggest dissapointment that I have spent my money on
the biggest difference I have seen yet between woofers
is comparing ANY woofer to a JBL WGTI with the differential
drive design...
there is a voice coil at each end of the former..each with
it's own magnetic gap...
at low power both coils drive the woofers cone..
as power increases one coil rides completely out
of it's magnetic gap while force is still applied by the
other coil...
at extreame high power each coil enter's the other coils
magnetic gap producing magnetic braking..
bassically what this does is make the bass rock solid tight
and the more power you push into them the tighter the sound
becomes...having a current servo amplifier driving them produces
bass that drops any jaw
these woofers have dominated the SQ and SQL comps since
their release back in 2002/2003
awsome design..I am giving my GTI's well over 2X their rated
RMS and they take it very well...
any regular woofer design in my mind is now obsolete
and has no place in my install
for SQ with the right set up woofer size is not really an issue..
Garry Biggs (team JBL) has won the International Sound Quality
trophy 5 or 6 years in a row with a pair of W15gti subs in sealed
enclosures...
personally I like the sound of my 10"...they are very tight and
do not over power my components...
woofer size depends on your personal listening taste
Last edited by caraudiodude; Feb 16, 2009 at 11:31 PM.
