TomK

Uhmmmmmm.................hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......... aaaaaaaaaaaah [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img] From my limited understanding, kicks should be as wide apart as possible (deep as possible into the A-frame), as that helps define the width of the sound stage. They should also be as deep as you can get them (in other words, as far away as you can get them from where you are sitting) to equalize the path length as much as possible with the seat all the way back and down (if you have that option). And you should still be able to have a direct line of sight to most of the cone (not buried so far under the dash so that you cannot see them at all).

Tim, I disagree with you a bit on something. The first tuning instrument I agree upon but I think the second MOST important instrument is the X-over. It makes or breaks an install in my mind.

With regards to EQ-ing, better to cut frequencies then to boost. I have an article somewhere squirreled away that talks about this and it works well. And EQ-ing should be VERY minimal like Tim shows. If you’re EQ-ing like a mad man, then your design is flawed somewhere.

Sound deadening is also important in order to eliminate secondary sources from you front stage drivers. For example, that mid in your door that makes the door panel rattle, that door panel is working somewhat like the cone on the speaker and creating another source ontop of the door speaker. That’s generally bad. When you’re playing tunes, if anything is rattling or moving, it’s causing a similar effect to what your speakers are doing, except it’s likely causing cancellations, phasing issues, and all kinds of other bad junk.

SUX 2BU

iTrader: (1)

Yeah the weird thing about human hearing is that it is 100% purely subjective. Who can really say what sounds good or not? No one can hear what another person really hears and there isn't a machine that can define it either. So the basis on whether or not something sounds good is the opinions and agreements of a group of people who mutually agree that something sounds good. That's kinda how I see it anyways [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

That is what can make competition difficult, when you get a judge who has in his mind what he thinks, or has been told, is good sound and is comparing it to how your car sounds and what you think is good. It's not a quantitative item like SPL or RTA so it could be totally arguable.

Haunz

iTrader: (3)

That thread was sort of a waste of time, eh... ?

Had a few good laughs though... nice to see some around here still can't deferentiate their *** from their hat, but still act like they know it all...

Too bad I missed out... I read most of a book on imaging and soundstage not that long ago... (albeit a pro audio book)

I would have just loved to get into another flame war with all the 'professionals' on the board... [img]graemlins/jammin.gif[/img]

Impala Street X

I also hear that adding oxygen in large dose's also helps raise the sound stage.
This is due to the lower frequencies being heavier than the highs, so with more oxygen in the air the lower frequencies will rise up to match the highs.

Also if you use small fans on your A Pillars it blows these lower frequencies to to the center of the car.


LOL [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img]

Thier are alot of myths that I read on the internet, may opinions from people who have never tuned a car in thier life.


My Main tuning goes like this (once speakers are in the correct places)

1: Raw crossover points
2: Muteing lows and mid, listen to just tweets and figure out the x-over point and slope
3: do this with just mids
4: combine mid and high and determine if I was right, if not adjust while both mid and tweet are playing (interation does make a differance)
5: Adjust levels to balance the tonality
6: add a little sub to round the freq response out.
7: listen to alot of music that I tune with.
8: make manual adjustments by ear
9: use the RTA and specific disks for certian things to get ride of (remove not add)
10: listen for the specific problem I'm listening for and look on the RTA of where it is in the freq domain. Use x-over if possible, eq is needed.

Thats the basic way I tune, it does change depending on how well the car was built and condition it is brough to me.

Depending on the system additional things are done such as:

Time alignment
Polarity of drivers
turning off/or out right removing drivers
gain adjustments (complete signal chain from deck to output of the amps)


I tell everyone I work with, or talk to about tuning. You may get lucky and a car gets tuned in very little time. These cars were built VERY well where driver location/selectiopn and system design had a lot of attention paid to them.

Or your car may take days and days to get in teh ball park because the tuner is fighting design problems from a car that was not properly designed in the first place.

The general rule is a competition level car is not tuned in one night. It takes months to massage a system to conform to the rules, or meet your expectations.

Also it may come to "your system will never make it to those levels due to design "


"Tuning" can not fix alot of things.

- Poor speaker locations
- Poor equipment
- Poor system design
- Poor interior accoustics
- Poor choice of that picnic table size wing you planted on the back of your car (on sorry thats not to do with audio....but...well...you know)


It's not all about competition. Your personal expectations are just like a rule book. You have a goal and want to reach it.

TomK

Well, that's that for this subject

Jamie, nice to see that you're dropping in. Looks like some more Canadians with experience are starting to show their faces again............. and share, just like is being taught in the daycare system. Share....... SHARE...... S-H-A-R-E or you're going for a time-out you little bass-tard

SQMAN

Whatever happened to listening to music on a good home stereo and then transferring the information from that reference to the car.

Let's face it from what everyone is saying no one has a reference point to start from.............. we are comparing cars. The vehicle was never designed for optimum sound quality and rather difficult to achieve in. In 97 and 98 when I judged the IASCA finals we had to listen to a multi thousand dollar system before ever stepping into a car. This way you have a refernce point to start with. Many maunufacturers of high end car audio will give you an example of how to get a reference point. Also it seems that no one is going to live performances to learn what it really should sound like. From my past experiences believe me when i say this. Get to a clssical concert series at your local auditorium and sit and have a good listen, Close your eyes and enjoy it. You will come out of there with a better understanding of what a live performance should sound like and then go out and attack your vehicle with fury. Listen to as many different styles of music and try a lot of different things until the desired effect is achieved. SQ is very subjective depending on who you talk to. Have a lot of people listen to your vehicle and hear what they say about it. You must have an understanding the text book theory of sound and how our ears relay that information to our brains before you can begin. Good luck and good sq.

Impala Street X

Along the point of SQ MAN

Those who attended the IASCA training I put on at Audio Thunder should remember when I talked about this.

The only way to understand how music sounds is to listen to it live. Not a amplified concert but an accoustical concert.

You don't have to spend $80 and head of the to classical concert venue.

Every highschool has a music department that usually has at least one concert a year. It will cost you 3-5 bucks and will be the best money you have spent.

Your not going to listen to who good or bad the kids play.(infact if a few of them are bad it's good because you shoudl be able to single them out by listening where they are in the band) You going to listen how instruments really sound, how the insuruments on the stage layer, and place across that stage. How the room effects what you hear (echo's, size, ambiant noise and refelections) go thier to listen technically.

A home system is the same as a car stereo. It may not have as many down falls as the car audio enviorment but again it is a re-production, not the real thing.

spent the $5 and call your local high school (assuming they will let yo back in after all the crap you did when you attended....lol)
[img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

SUX 2BU

iTrader: (1)

I agree. Live, acoustical performances are about the only true reference. And the hall they are played in affects it to. I don't think a high school gym is going to offer the same acoustics as an actual shoebox-shape, properly designed concert hall. Nor does a gym really do the instruments justice. Then again, my high school didn't have a 'real' auditorium It said auditorium on the doors but it had a hardwood floor and basketball nets [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]

SQMAN

The reality of all of this is that you should be able to tell the difference between all different instruments regardless of where they are being played(room acoustics) Try listening to music and imagine the environment that it was recorded in. In a different post people were asking about different music that we use to set up our systems. I use classical music predominantly because it is the hardest to reproduce accurately.For those of you out there that have the Focal CD #1 Listen to the track entitled Grandmas Hands and listen for the room acoustics. It should blow you away. It is all acapella and the subs will look like they are moving out of control. Helps me sell a boat load of subs. Another good track I use quite often is a duet with Bono and the edge with Pavarotti at an outdoor benefit concert and listen to the differnce in sizes of the voices of the singers.(Miss Sarajevo) This helps me to set up the mid range tweeter frequencies. Just some cool different ways to blow away your friends and or customers.