Speaker and tweeter placement
 

I'm gonna be doing a pair of Massive Audio CK6 components for my front stage with plans to add CDT 6x9 subs and upstage tweeter kit if need be. Question is, if I'm not really looking to compete, does it really matter if I put them in kicks or doors. I know the thinking of more equal path lengths. But wondering how crucial this is in my case? I'm trying to work form and functionality into design and my design works better with components in the doors.
Also wondering how much difference putting the tweets by the mids will make vs. The sail panels. I have stock speakers in doors with aftermarket tweets in sail panels now that kick in at 1.4 kHz and think it sounds great. Co
Pared to stock at least. Is overlap of speaker frequencies necessarily a bad thing?
Just looking for input of SQ guys or anyone with a practical experience. Remember not competing. Just wanna play loud and clear and sound goo

Saying you don't want to compete doesn't say much about your goals...

Doesn't seem like you care about imaging and having a stage, so stick whatever you want wherever you want and it can be loud and enjoyable wherever you put them IMO. I would suggest putting in more speakers (rear doors and rear shelf) it will at least help with frequency response across the entire car:no weird stuff when you turn your head.

Goals; play loud and clear (as mentioned above). Would like it to sound good enough that someone with some knowledge and experience in SQ would also think so. Without going into time alignment etc. Right away. There's not alot of SQ comps on Vancouver island and I don't plan to travel just to compete.
I'm simply asking for opinion from some SQ vets. I will try all my speaker placements before final install. Just wondering a good starting point. I will also have rear speakers in the vehicle but even in fairly stock arrangement I like them as faint rear fill.
I don't care a whole bunch about imaging and staging. Just don't want sound to all be coming from my ankles. Is the only way to get around this with time alignment? That's why I was thinking tweets in sails, to bring the image up. Can this be accomplished by low speaker locations pointed more toward dome light?. The tweeters do a broad range incl. Vocals( as u know, I believe you're running the same speakers) so I thought sails could be utilized and still keep a decent image if my mids were in doors. Thanks for input.

Mids in the doors and tweeters in the A-pillars works very well in many cars. Imaging won't be ideal but should work out alright.

I use my tweeters in the sails and it sounds pretty good, Depending on the components it may sound better or worse. If you cheap out like buying a set of Infinity Reference components you will get hearing fatigue because there tweeters are too bright.

I listen to these components almost every day at the shop where I work and just imagine how they'll sound/look in my car in pods. All planned out in my head and looks great. I want to get them in asap but am not sure of their output off deck power. May not be able to keep up with the subs without amplification. Maybe ill do the woofers and run my current aftermarket tweeters until amped. They sound great off deck power. I think I'm gonna get my supplies with tax return money and get started soon. sshhh.... don't tell my wife.

Kick pods are obviously the best choice, but if you don't have any foot room to spare, down low and as close to the front as you can get with the tweeters close to the mids is a close second according to what I have read. I just picked up an Alpine CDA-117, which has built in time correction to help correct odd path lengths.

You have a kilowatt on 12s and wonder if you need an amp for the front speakers???

And you work in a shop??

:ohwell:

I know I need an amp for speakers. Can I borrow some money.
What I'm sayin is I'm wondering how efficient these speakers are and am I gonna get comparable volume vs. Stock. That's why I was thinking of running my current massive tweeters because I know they're efficient and am happy with current output. At least until I can afford an amp.
Sure I plan on having an additional 4-ch for speakers plus another 2-ch to run front stage subs. But I'm not a millionaire. And do have a family to support.
Thanks for being condescending though

No problem. I'm good at it.

If it reinforces the fact that you need an amp, then it was effective.

Dude. Maybe you should reread the post."until amped" would imply I will have an amp on them eventually. And my current setup of stock woofers and aftermarket tweeters keeps up with "1kw" just fine. So I'm just saying if these are equally efficient it's gonna sound fine off deck power until I can get an amp. Maybe if DUKK's gonna be a DIKK he should leave his 2cents out.
I also wasn't asking anyone if I should run an amp.

Sorry for being a DIKK, DUKK. I think u took what I originally said a little out of context. But I do plan on running an amp eventually. And hope I am happy with output until then.

No problem Mr.IClaimToHave11YearsInTheIndustryButAmANoob, you do what you like.

It says AutoTech in your profile.. What is that, like an oil-change guy?? IF you were a mechanic then you would have said mechanic so... I mean, no slag if you change oil, a buddy of mine runs one of those shops, but to lump that in with being a car installer? hmm.. Not so much the same.. :sly:

Pretty clever there with the vowel substitution. Yeah nobody over the last 12 years here ever thought of that one... :retard:

Holy $#!+ dude. I apologize and you still act like a DIKK.:dunno:
Real classy moderators on this site. :stroke:

Maybe if you read a full post before spouting off and offering "advice" that was already covered you wouldn't have smart ass comments.
And actually I figured that auto tech could be grouped with installs being that they're both done on electrical and hard parts of vehicles. I've actually worked at two performance shops and a BMW specialist shop before this job. Not strictly oil changing. Believe it or not. How bout jump off a 3 story buildingface first. Do just enough damage to make your brain even less functional than it currently is. :retard:
Thanks. Bye

I smell the ban hammer coming!!

I hope it goes for moderators too. I thought they were supposed to be the rational voice, but whatever:dunno: sucks it had to come to it but a guys gotta stand up for himself. Had some good chats no matter how short my visit was. :smokin:

I think that pretty much sums up what everybody thinks after reading a few of your posts.

^why don't u give me some examples mr. "used to bash Massive but then they gave me a bunch of free stuff now it's great" I'm guessing because I have questions about SQ I'm a noob to the whole world.
And 11 years in the industry is all car related jobs I've had. Sorry if that's not okay with you guys.

You think a free t-shirt is enough to sway anybody? hehe
You can argue by yourself as far as I am converned noob.

^Alright. So what made you switch over to Massive after bashing them. Enough to run a completely Massive system now. I really wanna know. Did you actually demo their stuff somewhere or just decide, on a whim, to purchase all their stuff after talking with the business owner. I've been running their stuff for years. Bit of hypocrite you are, no?

This coming from a person running their tweets in sail panels. I thought this site was to help people, not mislead them. Infinity reference speakers are fine, the ability to make a $150 component system sound good is better than dishing out $1000 on components believing that will solve your issues. Crossing over tweeters @ 1.4khz is almost as dumb as putting tweeters in a sail. Why do people read something somewhere and pledge allegiance to it like it's gospel? Here's a hint, put a speaker next to your ear at moderate listening levels, don't destroy your hearing of course. How does that sound to ya? Now take that same speaker and put it 4' away, now how does that sound? Now imagine what happens when for example you put a speaker in a sail panel and cross it at 1.4khz, than crank up the volume? I'll give you another hint, ears bleeding, or as some call it, "listening fatigue". One of the biggest myths in audio is that a tweeter needs to play low to sound good, actually quite the opposite is true. Try playing the tweeter in the 5-6khz range and place speakers as far away from listening position as possible, I hope this helps, good luck.

lol, so much hostility. I point out that your questions are suspiciously noobular for an "11 year vet" and you ride off the deep end. tsk tsk.

And inserting an insult into an apology sort of negates the apology don't you think? :dunno:

Sorry if I'm riding you but you mention you work at a shop (inferred credibility) and then ask the most basic of questions: can I run comps off deck power. wtf is that? It's not like you wanted to debate details of kickpanel vs a-pillar tweeter mounting - you asked a question about deck power.

You know, maybe this is all my fault? I hold industry members to a higher standard. They don't need to know everything but they should have the basics covered IMO. Maybe the next time one of your reps is in you should ask for some Car Audio 101? Until then I'll try to not hold any standards to you. Where was it you worked again? One of those better-than-the-box-stores independent shops? :rolleyes:

My tweeters are add on tweeter and come with a crossover designed to run 1.4 to 26 kHz. Not really my choice as of right now. I will probably never run a full active setup as I am probably never gonna compete. I enjoy listening to my system and have no fatigue and no complaints besides lack of midbass (obviously. I'm currently running deck power on high pass). We do what we can with what we got. The tweeter is about 2 ft away from my ear on drivers side currently and was just added as a simple upgrade. It does its job well.

DUKK, maybe you should take my suggestion and re-read posts that you think youre quotin. I NEVER ASKED ANYBODY IF I NEEDED AN AMP! I told you that before and you just repost the same BS. I said "I am not sure of their output off deck power" meaning if they are as efficient as my current speakers their volume level will be fine. again, "until amped" would suggest that I AM planning on using an amp.
And as for throwing an insult in with apology, do u want me to make 2 separate posts next time. Stating that moderators should be held to a higher standard as far as their conduct. I was under the impression you guys are supposed to be helpful, not vindictive and standoffish. :appl: thanks

The apology was in a previous post and you replied to it rudely so I decided to do the same. What u were quoting happened after that.
And again I NEVER ASKED THAT QUESTION. Read what you're quoting and you'll realize that. And originally I was asking about speaker placement until this whole fiasco. You talk about my credibility and then just talk out your ass. WTF is that?:eyes:

This was actually the apology and your rudeness followed. And so did mine.

You do realize that whatever you can do active, you can accomplish with passive crossovers, right? That add on crossover can be easily changed over to play in the 5-6khz range for less than $5, now the only thing you need to do is figure out hot to do it, quite simple actually. I have run full active and full passive in the past 20 years, and have not competed in about 18 years, has nothing to do with running active. Active setups just give you the ability to fine tune your system on the fly, end of story. Midbass response from speakers have more to do with installation than with amplifier power, just like subwoofers and sizes of boxes. saying a tweeter 2' away from your head does it's job well is hard to believe, being a simple upgrade I can believe though. I think you need to do some reading and have a chance to listen to some quality car audio installs, not just some gino down the street with the loudest car on the block. I'm not trying to be a DIKK like DUKK, lol, I'm just trying to point you in the right direction as I see a lot of contradiction with what you are asking.

Thanks^. I do appreciate advice vs. Criticism. I do realize there is constuctive criticism, but that's not been the basis of most of this thread. Do you have a reference site on passives? I will be doing a component set in near future off their own passives, but new info is always a learning experience. Which was what I was hoping to get from this site. My mid bass drivers are factory right now and had decent bass to begin with, but system really lacked highs so I did tweeters. I have my alpine xd over at 160 to speakers. Mostly to sacrifice bass for loud clean power. And it does keep up with my SQ box and 1000 watts just fine. Obviously I'd like more volume. But I step at a time. Thanks for not bein a DIKK. :thumbsup:
Where am I contradicting myself? Just so we can clarify and answer some of my questions. Thanks again.

Putting speakers in kicks is not to create equal path lengths necessarily, that's what "TA" helps you accomplish. You are still closer to the kick on the driver's side. The kicks are the furthest point from you in most cars, this allows the music from the mid and tweeter which hopefully are close to one another to sum up and sound coherent, hope that makes some sense to you?

I use a 3-way front stage for instance which is "partially active" the mids and tweeter are running off a passive network crossed at 6khz for the tweeter and a bandpass for the mid from about 240Hz-6khz. The mid bass is in the doors and is heavily dampened and running active from the amplifiers crossover, it is also band passed from about 80Hz-240Hz. The subs are running everything from 60Hz down, and everything is running from one six channel amplifier. This is only an example of how you can set things up, but to do this in a 2-way setup would require you to run sealed kicks for better mid bass response.

To use an upstage tweeter or not? To be honest, in some cars you may need to but I have found that the higher you cross the tweeter the higher your stage appears to be. will it be perfect? probably not perfect, but pretty damn close, the key is to find a mid that can play mid bass and clean mids at higher volumes if you're going to go 2-way setup.

So, to sum it up......Keep speakers as far away from you as possible, keep the tweeters and mids as close together as possible, the higher you cut off the tweeter the higher your stage will appear to be, dampen doors and panels heavily. There are obviously many other factors, but start with that and come see us when you're done and we'll go from there.:)

I do plan on doin a partially active front as well. Components high passed with passives(eventually run off an amp.) And 6x9 subs I found at CDT. The front subs will be band passed. Everything will be heavily dampened. How many layers of f glass would u suggest on the door pods. They will be attached to the inner door skin for rigidity. Ive also heard of funky stuff like guys mixing sand in with their resin or adding non drying sculpting clay to the inside of their pods for density. Any merit to that? I guess it's similar to deadening them. All holes in inner door skin will be covered and inner and outer skins will be dampened.

Speaker placement makes sense and I will keep tweeter close but TA is prob the last thing on my list. I know it's not all about quantity bit want to have all the hard parts in before that kind of tuning. I'll obviously wait on the upstage until after all other sounds in.

Thanks again for input. Hopefully I'll be started on at least the component install in the next couple weeks. I'll keep u guys posted if I can keep from getting banned.:sly:

Dukk's a lover not a banner. hehe

I know we can put this whole thing behind us. I am here to learn and don't claim to know it all. But don't appreciate being talked down to or mis quoted I don't have the most experience of the lot but I think I know my $#!+ Hopefully all is well.

Thanks for any real help as well

Right there. Ok maybe I summarized but essentially you are pondering on whether you need an amp or not. With "1000" watts on the bottom end, the answer is yes.

There, I helped you. I actually helped you in my first post in this thread as well. As I explained before, I obviously got the wrong impression of you when you mentioned you worked in a shop. I have a more informed opinion now.

And dude, you were no where near being banned - you didn't even get points :thumbsup:

I guess I was mostly thinking out loud. Wondering how it would sound because that's how it WILL be run until I can afford an amp. I hope they are efficient enough that I get decent volume off deck power. I know it wont be the loudest or cleanest and will lack real punch and clarity with no real power. But step by step it will get done.:smokin:

I do value your input as you seem to be a knowledgeable veteran, just don't
appreciate being talked down to. You can explain things in a more appropriate way and I wil probably know exactly what you're talking about. I do have a good knowledge base of practical and theoretical information. And am quick to catch on. Thanks again for the help :)

Hey datsubishi do u find that u have crap radio reveption? I have the same car and I can't stand to listen to AM radio it's so shittty

^I almost never listen to the radio. And don't really listen to AM at all. I have an aftermarket alpine radio and reception is good. I'll ask my GF if she ever listened to AM and how it compares to this aftermarket reception. I only had the stock radio in there to wait out my 6 month Sirius sat radio trial. And that's pretty much all we listened to except CDs. I'll post her experience later.

As this thread was looking to spiral right down the toilet and my good buddy the D-man (aka Dikk........ ha, ha, ha...... 12 years and we never even thought of that..... that's funny stuff !!) is involved, I continued to read on, skimming mostly.

Ok, first impressions here too were that the OP starts into that discussion area of some kind of competition level setup and yet not wanting to compete. Ok, so anyone walking that way you assume must have some knowledge. Most Jacks on the street no nothing of car audio comps. Then the shop comment. So the guy is in the environment I assume. Yeah, MAYBE the OP kinda tried to post himself off as somehow "in" the scene in trying to fit in ??? Is that fair to say? Then he bombed out by making a few comments that didn't make sense and the wolves jumped him. He fires back trying to protect his reputation. Downward spiral........ just another regular day on CCA.

Whatever........ anyways, bassheads have a 1K sub setup and run the rest off deck power. If you're trying to achieve something decent, I think the gameplan should be to create a balanced system. When knowledgable car audio people jump in (that are actually knowledgable), thats what they like to hear (unless you're into SPL). You're not there yet. Deck power is crap. Look at your system as a whole. It's only as good as the weakest link.

Yeah, you're poor and supporting Timmy and a pet. There's lots of us like that. No sympathy from me on that. That just means you have to spend your money wisely which means you need a game plan. If you're poor, don't bling it out and try to be "thee man" in town. Live within your means. 200 watt sub amp on an efficient sub that doesn't need lotsa power. Decent entry level 4 channel on a nice set of components. That's where your head should be. Kick panels and tweeter pods is a joke at this stage. Kick panels sound cool but are REALLY expensive to do right. Tweeters up high are nice but can also rip your head off, destroy your sound stage and generally sound like azz if not dealt with properly.

My point is play smart. Not all the advice you may get will be good. That means you MUST do some homework and make yourself knowledgable first and foremost. Then come to the table. And you need to travel further then CCA. Not everything on this forum that gets posted is right. Oh, and one other thing. Some of the worst advice I've heard of some times comes from installers in the industry. It's a minefield out there. Good luck.

Anyways, enuf from me. :stroke:

^u thought it was goin downhill? You shoulda seen what I posted and edited the day after. Lol.

I want a set up mostly for show, but I'm not one to do something like that. Form usually follows function on my personal car work. ( mostly streetable racing import stuff) I do need it to sound good too but this one will follow form in this case. I do compete in spl at a street level, love bass, but want a clean looking functional system to go along with it.

I thought my comments that were bashed made sense and even when quoted later, some phrases like "until amped" were omitted. I tried to explain what I had said clearer but it seemed to fall on deaf (or dumb, in the classic sense[retarded]not stupid) ears.

I think my overall plan is feasible and I'd rather save up and spend money on a good amp vs. entry level. I'll just have to suffer with the sound until then. Which I'm willing to do. I already have the speakers and will be making the pods myself. It will be a learning excercise but I'm sure they'll end up A+. I will be asking for advice along the way to make sure they do.

I've had the sub amp for like 6 years and feel no need to change it, run a huge box that takes up most of my trunk but like to pound when appropriate. Like I said function will follow form on this build so I'd like to get pods in and looking good. Obviously I'm not gonna add front stage subs until we're all amped but it is part of the ultimate goal.

Thanks go the advice Tom. I do take any advice given and am here to gain some more knowledge. I hope to impress, or at least gain some respect, with the quality and finished product of my install. In the end as long as I'm happy. But I'm hoping some good things will come out of this forum. Most of my dealings on here have been quite positive so far.

Thanks again to everyone with USEFUL feedback

No worries. You got to remember that my good ole buddy Dukk there is old and crusty, unlike myself who is wise and easy to get along with always. I've NEVER caused ANY issues on this forum...... EVER !! :cheeky4:

I have no experience with the Massive stuff or '09 Lancers, but when it comes time, test drive the gear in the location where you want to permanently mount them BEFORE you permanently mount them. You may find certain angles work better and things like the tweeters MAY sound better in the kick panels beside the mids. I don't know. I do know it's smart to test first, build later. Measure 3 times, cut once. Reduces the amount of disappointment and shame later on.

I remember clearly the amount of work that went into a set of Audi kick-panels where I gutted all the automotive CRAP that was behind the plastic cover (wiring harnesses, modules, etc) to achieve audio perfection for a deep set of Rainbow drivers. But I tested first and all the work was worthy of the effort. If it wasn't, I would have had to string myself up and be bled out like a dead moose carcass. Was a frustrating and nerve racking job making all the extensions and such to relocate junk. Gaaaah.

:retard:

I was kind of enjoying your drop-in on the first post. Now, not so much... :laugh: