Sound deadening doors!
06-07-2004, 10:31 AM
#81
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
Originally posted by PEI330Ci:
^^Yes, I can comment on that.
People actually have 3 ears.
Say what?
People probably think I'm nuts but I will explain. Your skull acts as your 3rd ear, it sends mono signals to your brain from abient energy in the air. Then your brain takes takes the information from your ears and compares it to the mono signal to derive directional information. This is why wearing something over your skull like a toque decreases spatial awareness. This is also partly why humans become disoriented when high SPL is present. Thus the dizzy feeling with TONS of bass, kind of a natural but damaging high. Higher frequency information naturally has less energy in it, thus it shakes your skull less. This reduces the saturation of energy that overwhelms the directional information from your ears. In short, the higher the frequency, the more sensitive your ears are to location.
My personal experience with moderate level sound in car has led me to believe that frequencies above 50 or 60 hz can easily have their source located. I've further found that chosing as steep a slope as possible for rear mounted subs helps to hide their location. I've tried everything from 12db/oct to 36db/oct. with my subs, and the steeper always seemed to be more musical to me.
If you are trying to actually "hear" that there are speakers in your trunk, cross them over as high as you can.
A big part of higher cross over points "locating" your rear speakers, are harmonics. Harmonic distortion is present in every phase of amplification no mater how good your components are. Harmonics are tones present in reproduced sound at perfect octaves above the source note. For example, and 80hz note will have a 1rst order harmonic of 160hz, and a second order harmonic of 320hz. Each order of harmonic is usually at least 12db down on the source above it. So your 80hz tone at 120 db might have a 108db 160hz harmonic and a 96db 320hz harmonic. The higher the quality of the driver, the further db difference separates the original note from the first harmonic. (this is just a general rule)
Now some people at this point may be wailing " what about my 24db/oct cross over, doesn't that filter out the harmonics?" NO it does not, the harmonics above are sourced at the driver, not before your cross over.
So crossing over your sub at as low a point as possible brings the harmonics produced by the driver into a range less distinctive directionally by the human ear.
Anyone care to correct me?
Adam
^^Yes, I can comment on that.
People actually have 3 ears.
Say what?
People probably think I'm nuts but I will explain. Your skull acts as your 3rd ear, it sends mono signals to your brain from abient energy in the air. Then your brain takes takes the information from your ears and compares it to the mono signal to derive directional information. This is why wearing something over your skull like a toque decreases spatial awareness. This is also partly why humans become disoriented when high SPL is present. Thus the dizzy feeling with TONS of bass, kind of a natural but damaging high. Higher frequency information naturally has less energy in it, thus it shakes your skull less. This reduces the saturation of energy that overwhelms the directional information from your ears. In short, the higher the frequency, the more sensitive your ears are to location.
My personal experience with moderate level sound in car has led me to believe that frequencies above 50 or 60 hz can easily have their source located. I've further found that chosing as steep a slope as possible for rear mounted subs helps to hide their location. I've tried everything from 12db/oct to 36db/oct. with my subs, and the steeper always seemed to be more musical to me.
If you are trying to actually "hear" that there are speakers in your trunk, cross them over as high as you can.
A big part of higher cross over points "locating" your rear speakers, are harmonics. Harmonic distortion is present in every phase of amplification no mater how good your components are. Harmonics are tones present in reproduced sound at perfect octaves above the source note. For example, and 80hz note will have a 1rst order harmonic of 160hz, and a second order harmonic of 320hz. Each order of harmonic is usually at least 12db down on the source above it. So your 80hz tone at 120 db might have a 108db 160hz harmonic and a 96db 320hz harmonic. The higher the quality of the driver, the further db difference separates the original note from the first harmonic. (this is just a general rule)
Now some people at this point may be wailing " what about my 24db/oct cross over, doesn't that filter out the harmonics?" NO it does not, the harmonics above are sourced at the driver, not before your cross over.
So crossing over your sub at as low a point as possible brings the harmonics produced by the driver into a range less distinctive directionally by the human ear.
Anyone care to correct me?
Adam
...for example My experiment with an Aliante 15" Subwoofer...I bought it for its's shallow mounting depth. I placed it in a APERIODIC enclosure with only 3" depth...This sub sounded so amazing, I crossed it over ---18db LP @ 160HZ, and did it ever bring a bigger Midbass presence to my front stage, it perfromed like a TOM SKIN on Drum tracks, and it blended in very smoothly with my Front stage,--- it was very transparant and did not sound directional or like it was coming from the rear of the car...the Midbass hit your skull and then your windsheild so quick you could hardly tell it was coming from behind you..the sub is very dynamic in this set-up because it is allowed to move more freely and naturally, and is not too restricted to perform compared to when its inside a BOX.
I think it has to do with the FLAT cone design of the SUB that allowed it to blend in smoothly with my front stage, no Phase cancelation as associated with cone design Subs.
Two of these Subs can be used as a Midbass with very impressive results, and you don't have to CUT your Dash in half to fit them either...just place them in the back and they WILL PERFORM!
The only reason I got Rid of it is because I wanted a SUB that would Really move some air in the Cabin. Which is why I bought a JL 13W7.
[img]graemlins/post.gif[/img]
06-07-2004, 12:41 PM
#82
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 96
for example My experiment with an Aliante 15" Subwoofer...]
Thanks in advance and once again sorry for the interuption,
Doug
[ June 07, 2004, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: droy ]
06-07-2004, 02:18 PM
#83
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
Ok here's my opinion with the Aliante----
If you listen to RAP or HIP-HOP then it will not perform well. In fact I built a sealed box for it and it sounded muddy and struggled to move inside the BOX because the lack of air release at the back of the sub(30 1 inch holes to vent front and back waves)is not much room to MOVE any air inside the cars interior.
Although when I had it in an AP set-up it, SHOOK the car on some BASS CD's and even performed good in the low HZ region on some tunes.
But as far as LOUD bass goes, nothing compares to a woofer that is designed for it...such as IDmax and JL.
If you want loud bass that won't disapoint you get the other SUBS.
If you have time and money and want good SQ and a very musical WOOFER... then buy TWO 15" Aliante's and put them in an AP setup, they will perform well and sound very dynamic with rock tunes. [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img]
[ June 07, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Halo1 ]
If you listen to RAP or HIP-HOP then it will not perform well. In fact I built a sealed box for it and it sounded muddy and struggled to move inside the BOX because the lack of air release at the back of the sub(30 1 inch holes to vent front and back waves)is not much room to MOVE any air inside the cars interior.
Although when I had it in an AP set-up it, SHOOK the car on some BASS CD's and even performed good in the low HZ region on some tunes.
But as far as LOUD bass goes, nothing compares to a woofer that is designed for it...such as IDmax and JL.
If you want loud bass that won't disapoint you get the other SUBS.
If you have time and money and want good SQ and a very musical WOOFER... then buy TWO 15" Aliante's and put them in an AP setup, they will perform well and sound very dynamic with rock tunes. [img]graemlins/bow.gif[/img]
[ June 07, 2004, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Halo1 ]
06-07-2004, 03:22 PM
#84
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 96
"If you listen to RAP or HIP-HOP then it will not perform well."
...no worries, I'd rather be a prisoner in Irag than listen to rap...
"In fact I built a sealed box for it and it sounded muddy and struggled to move inside the BOX because the lack of air release at the back of the sub(30 1 inch holes to vent front and back waves)is not much room to MOVE any air inside the cars interior."
...this may be a problem since they'll be running inside my truck...
"Although when I had it in an AP set-up it, SHOOK the car on some BASS CD's and even performed good in the low HZ region on some tunes."
...interesting, I wouldn't have predicted this...
"But as far as LOUD bass goes, nothing compares to a woofer that is designed for it...such as IDmax and JL."
...loud is relative, but I do like to crank 'em every now and then. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
"If you have time and money and want good SQ and a very musical WOOFER... then buy TWO 15" Aliante's and put them in an AP setup, they will perform well and sound very dynamic with rock tunes."
...very cool, I appreciate the imput. BTW, any ideas where to audition them? I can't seem to find a dealer and the Linear Power site's in German only.
[ June 07, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: droy ]
...no worries, I'd rather be a prisoner in Irag than listen to rap...
"In fact I built a sealed box for it and it sounded muddy and struggled to move inside the BOX because the lack of air release at the back of the sub(30 1 inch holes to vent front and back waves)is not much room to MOVE any air inside the cars interior."
...this may be a problem since they'll be running inside my truck...
"Although when I had it in an AP set-up it, SHOOK the car on some BASS CD's and even performed good in the low HZ region on some tunes."
...interesting, I wouldn't have predicted this...
"But as far as LOUD bass goes, nothing compares to a woofer that is designed for it...such as IDmax and JL."
...loud is relative, but I do like to crank 'em every now and then. [img]graemlins/thumb.gif[/img]
"If you have time and money and want good SQ and a very musical WOOFER... then buy TWO 15" Aliante's and put them in an AP setup, they will perform well and sound very dynamic with rock tunes."
...very cool, I appreciate the imput. BTW, any ideas where to audition them? I can't seem to find a dealer and the Linear Power site's in German only.
[ June 07, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: droy ]
06-07-2004, 03:30 PM
#85
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 146
Originally posted by PEI330Ci:
^^Yes, I can comment on that.
People actually have 3 ears.
Say what?
People probably think I'm nuts but I will explain. Your skull acts as your 3rd ear, it sends mono signals to your brain from abient energy in the air. Then your brain takes takes the information from your ears and compares it to the mono signal to derive directional information. This is why wearing something over your skull like a toque decreases spatial awareness. This is also partly why humans become disoriented when high SPL is present. Thus the dizzy feeling with TONS of bass, kind of a natural but damaging high. Higher frequency information naturally has less energy in it, thus it shakes your skull less. This reduces the saturation of energy that overwhelms the directional information from your ears. In short, the higher the frequency, the more sensitive your ears are to location.
My personal experience with moderate level sound in car has led me to believe that frequencies above 50 or 60 hz can easily have their source located. I've further found that chosing as steep a slope as possible for rear mounted subs helps to hide their location. I've tried everything from 12db/oct to 36db/oct. with my subs, and the steeper always seemed to be more musical to me.
If you are trying to actually "hear" that there are speakers in your trunk, cross them over as high as you can.
A big part of higher cross over points "locating" your rear speakers, are harmonics. Harmonic distortion is present in every phase of amplification no mater how good your components are. Harmonics are tones present in reproduced sound at perfect octaves above the source note. For example, and 80hz note will have a 1rst order harmonic of 160hz, and a second order harmonic of 320hz. Each order of harmonic is usually at least 12db down on the source above it. So your 80hz tone at 120 db might have a 108db 160hz harmonic and a 96db 320hz harmonic. The higher the quality of the driver, the further db difference separates the original note from the first harmonic. (this is just a general rule)
Now some people at this point may be wailing " what about my 24db/oct cross over, doesn't that filter out the harmonics?" NO it does not, the harmonics above are sourced at the driver, not before your cross over.
So crossing over your sub at as low a point as possible brings the harmonics produced by the driver into a range less distinctive directionally by the human ear.
Anyone care to correct me?
Adam
^^Yes, I can comment on that.
People actually have 3 ears.
Say what?
People probably think I'm nuts but I will explain. Your skull acts as your 3rd ear, it sends mono signals to your brain from abient energy in the air. Then your brain takes takes the information from your ears and compares it to the mono signal to derive directional information. This is why wearing something over your skull like a toque decreases spatial awareness. This is also partly why humans become disoriented when high SPL is present. Thus the dizzy feeling with TONS of bass, kind of a natural but damaging high. Higher frequency information naturally has less energy in it, thus it shakes your skull less. This reduces the saturation of energy that overwhelms the directional information from your ears. In short, the higher the frequency, the more sensitive your ears are to location.
My personal experience with moderate level sound in car has led me to believe that frequencies above 50 or 60 hz can easily have their source located. I've further found that chosing as steep a slope as possible for rear mounted subs helps to hide their location. I've tried everything from 12db/oct to 36db/oct. with my subs, and the steeper always seemed to be more musical to me.
If you are trying to actually "hear" that there are speakers in your trunk, cross them over as high as you can.
A big part of higher cross over points "locating" your rear speakers, are harmonics. Harmonic distortion is present in every phase of amplification no mater how good your components are. Harmonics are tones present in reproduced sound at perfect octaves above the source note. For example, and 80hz note will have a 1rst order harmonic of 160hz, and a second order harmonic of 320hz. Each order of harmonic is usually at least 12db down on the source above it. So your 80hz tone at 120 db might have a 108db 160hz harmonic and a 96db 320hz harmonic. The higher the quality of the driver, the further db difference separates the original note from the first harmonic. (this is just a general rule)
Now some people at this point may be wailing " what about my 24db/oct cross over, doesn't that filter out the harmonics?" NO it does not, the harmonics above are sourced at the driver, not before your cross over.
So crossing over your sub at as low a point as possible brings the harmonics produced by the driver into a range less distinctive directionally by the human ear.
Anyone care to correct me?
Adam
As for high frequencies, those don't pass through your head because they are blocked or absorbed very easily by the skin/hair/skull. For example, take a tweet and listen to some music through it - put a sheet of paper in front of it and listen to it - it'll be muted by a LOT just because of a very thin sheet of paper. The way your ears can tell direction with high frequencies is because it's easily blocked by your head - you turn your head slightly so one ear is aimed more towards the speaker, and the other ear is blocked, therefore you get a level difference at the ears.
Mid frequencies can also be absorbed or blocked by your head, but at the lower end of this spectrum, they also tend to diffract around the head, causing different responses at your ear, so you hear slightly different things at each ear. Also, its easier at mid-frequencies for your brain to determine the phase difference between the two ear signals because of the longer wavelengths.
The toque effect affects both the high and mid frequencies - affecting the effective absorption of your head AND the diffraction of the sounds around your head - which changes what you hear.
At low frequencies you have really long wavelengths, and it's hard for your ears to determine the phase differences - so it's hard to tell directionality. Also, the low frequencies affect your body vibrationally, so that's another clue your brain uses to process the information.
As for disorientation when there is high SPL (I'm assuming mostly high SPL at low-frequencies), there can be two (maybe more) causes: Low frequencies vibrate the whole body - including the liquid in your ears that tell you your orientation, that cause you to get dizzy when you spin - so this may cause the dizzy sensation. Also, low frequencies, as transmitted to the cochlea, vibrate all along it, not just at one section like the higher frequencies, tending to mask the upper frequencies so you don't hear those as well. This can cause disorientation as well.
[ June 07, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: hobbes26 ]
06-07-2004, 04:12 PM
#86
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 146
Two of these 15's will SHAKE your car on some tunes, not including Techno.
I went to Phase Linears Web-sight and found the American dealer that sells them---somewhere in Dallas. But I do not know if anyone in the U.S. sells them anymore. This was one year ago.
I went to Phase Linears Web-sight and found the American dealer that sells them---somewhere in Dallas. But I do not know if anyone in the U.S. sells them anymore. This was one year ago.
06-07-2004, 04:59 PM
#87
Adam, i1've always been a fan of highly flexible crossovers (part of the reason i had to give up my EPX-2 unit... only 12db/octave). Tweeter applications are just as important; the higher the slope, the lower you can x-over that tweet to match the beefy midbass so the mid doesn't have to reach too high (most sixes can't do it very well)... can you say horn loaded drivers? what's the highest slope your processor is capable of?
way to go Halo1, you've got a legend in your car now. lmk how you'll use it!
way to go Halo1, you've got a legend in your car now. lmk how you'll use it!
06-07-2004, 07:42 PM
#89
Hobbes26, i couldn't help but think of military applications for the info you and Adam stated; the trade off between helmet usage and maximum efficiency...hummm.
i have also found that under higher SPL levels i find it harder to concentrate. sometimes remembering those marginal directions becomes harder.
i have also found that under higher SPL levels i find it harder to concentrate. sometimes remembering those marginal directions becomes harder.
06-07-2004, 08:33 PM
#90
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 96
Originally posted by Halo1:
Two of these 15's will SHAKE your car on some tunes, not including Techno.
I went to Phase Linears Web-sight and found the American dealer that sells them---somewhere in Dallas. But I do not know if anyone in the U.S. sells them anymore. This was one year ago.
Two of these 15's will SHAKE your car on some tunes, not including Techno.
I went to Phase Linears Web-sight and found the American dealer that sells them---somewhere in Dallas. But I do not know if anyone in the U.S. sells them anymore. This was one year ago.
I was thinking 2x12-inch SI Limiteds. 2x15-inches would be tight I think. I might start with one 12" though...they're a little pricey...
