Interconnects/Deck: The Relationship
05-27-2004, 08:10 PM
#11
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
First, I'd like to comment on Tim's point of veiw. Yes copper is copper, but there are some exotic jacketing techniques that offer both measurable impedence changes to the cable and audible differences. Weather they sound better is debatable.
It's pretty hard to argue with physics...especially the "left hand rule". Different braiding or twisting techniques will change a cables electromagnetic rejection properties. (noise rejections)
Blue cables always look better than red cables, but silver is best....well....maybe blue and silver is best. Right Tim?
Now the deck pigtails, and the copper or alloy "tracks" do affect SQ. But, it is pretty well uniformly ignored by most electronics manufactures. There are a few exceptions like a certain Denon deck, and the Alpine 7990 where the pigtails are of superior quality. The tracks inside of most electronics are routed for efficiency and noise rejection, not SQ. I don't feel that the track scenario is a weak link because it's hard to improve. Unless you want to increase the size of your head unit 10 times to allow for higher quality "wire" conductors, things aren't going to change on the consumer front.
Alpine uses the same pigtails from their bottom of the line decks up to the 7996 (which I have). If you are truely worried that the pigtails are a problem, have a certified service technician "hard-wire" your interconnect to where the pigtails are terminated inside the deck chassis.
Dukk, your point sums it up nicely. Mr.Chaos, he was not refering to interconnect from the pigtails back to your trunk.
Adam
It's pretty hard to argue with physics...especially the "left hand rule". Different braiding or twisting techniques will change a cables electromagnetic rejection properties. (noise rejections)
Blue cables always look better than red cables, but silver is best....well....maybe blue and silver is best. Right Tim?
Now the deck pigtails, and the copper or alloy "tracks" do affect SQ. But, it is pretty well uniformly ignored by most electronics manufactures. There are a few exceptions like a certain Denon deck, and the Alpine 7990 where the pigtails are of superior quality. The tracks inside of most electronics are routed for efficiency and noise rejection, not SQ. I don't feel that the track scenario is a weak link because it's hard to improve. Unless you want to increase the size of your head unit 10 times to allow for higher quality "wire" conductors, things aren't going to change on the consumer front.
Alpine uses the same pigtails from their bottom of the line decks up to the 7996 (which I have). If you are truely worried that the pigtails are a problem, have a certified service technician "hard-wire" your interconnect to where the pigtails are terminated inside the deck chassis.
Dukk, your point sums it up nicely. Mr.Chaos, he was not refering to interconnect from the pigtails back to your trunk.
Adam
05-28-2004, 09:44 AM
#12
the quality of the interconnects only lasts as long as it takes for the salesman to reach into your wallet and take the money out to pay for them, after that, you may as well run a string with a can on each end.
05-28-2004, 06:58 PM
#13
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
^^^I will dispute that, but it's a funny comment if that was your intention.
I have gone to considerable trouble to TRY a bunch of FREE interconnect. That is, I didn't pay a cent for it, and it took a bit of time to partially un-install some of my gear to do some listening tests. The result was benificial enough for me to totally re-think the signal chain in my system, as well as what wire would be used.
Personally, after all the gear that I've had stacked in my car, (including tons of home audio stuff) those pigtails just aren't a problem. Lots of other problems though....
Adam
I have gone to considerable trouble to TRY a bunch of FREE interconnect. That is, I didn't pay a cent for it, and it took a bit of time to partially un-install some of my gear to do some listening tests. The result was benificial enough for me to totally re-think the signal chain in my system, as well as what wire would be used.
Personally, after all the gear that I've had stacked in my car, (including tons of home audio stuff) those pigtails just aren't a problem. Lots of other problems though....
Adam
05-28-2004, 09:21 PM
#14
Ya gotta love placebos... 
Like dukk said... the tails will have a very slight effect on the decks output impedance compaired to the circuitry inside.... If the deck still has less then 500 ohms you are probably OK.... lol....
It could be a point of interest if you have differential inputs on your amp, have gone to the trouble of using a balanced line driver, or if you are using shielded cable to attenuate capacitivly induced noise... And the 'pig tails' are still picking up noise...
Personally, I wouldn't worry to much about it unless there was a problem in the first place...
The pigtails will NOT 'colour' the sound from the deck....
Like dukk said... the tails will have a very slight effect on the decks output impedance compaired to the circuitry inside.... If the deck still has less then 500 ohms you are probably OK.... lol....
It could be a point of interest if you have differential inputs on your amp, have gone to the trouble of using a balanced line driver, or if you are using shielded cable to attenuate capacitivly induced noise... And the 'pig tails' are still picking up noise...
Personally, I wouldn't worry to much about it unless there was a problem in the first place...
The pigtails will NOT 'colour' the sound from the deck....
05-28-2004, 10:39 PM
#15
I personally don't understand the need for ridiculously priced RCA cables. Spend the $ you would have spent on those pure silver cables for a digital system. i.e. P9 combo, or even the F1 Status deck and processor. This makes much more sense to me if you have thousands of dollars burning a hole in your pocket. Super premium cables seem to have one purpose to me....... something to brag about 
.
[ May 28, 2004, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Kool ]
.[ May 28, 2004, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Kool ]
05-28-2004, 11:15 PM
#16
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
Kool, I don't own the cables, I use them. So you see, there's no benifit to me having them except for my ears. I don't bring them up to brag, but simply to share something that is working well for me. Other's have recently made positive comments on a Deck change, I feel that the cables have made a larger difference in SQ in my system than a deck change. Not to discredit changing a deck, but nobody challenged the positive remarks made from that experience.
I recently put a Home CD transport in my car that retailed for $5000 US when it was new. I've heard this exact transport used in some home 2 channel systems worth over $50,000 US so I know it's capabilities. When I put this transport in my car, I did get a nice improvement in the SQ, but it was not as drastic as the forementioned KCAG cable change. So to me, going to the 7990 (which I may be doing) would be less of a benifit to the SQ than using a good set of cables.
To be fair, the rest of my equipment and the install is or will be top level.
I remember hearing once that 10% of an audio system's budget should be spent on cables. I bet most CCA members have inadvertantly fallen into this ratio, and I have as well. (That should give you a clue as to the value of my total system)
I find it ironic that most of the users of truely expensive cables have small egos.
Adam
I recently put a Home CD transport in my car that retailed for $5000 US when it was new. I've heard this exact transport used in some home 2 channel systems worth over $50,000 US so I know it's capabilities. When I put this transport in my car, I did get a nice improvement in the SQ, but it was not as drastic as the forementioned KCAG cable change. So to me, going to the 7990 (which I may be doing) would be less of a benifit to the SQ than using a good set of cables.
To be fair, the rest of my equipment and the install is or will be top level.
I remember hearing once that 10% of an audio system's budget should be spent on cables. I bet most CCA members have inadvertantly fallen into this ratio, and I have as well. (That should give you a clue as to the value of my total system)
I find it ironic that most of the users of truely expensive cables have small egos.
Adam
05-29-2004, 08:29 AM
#17
Originally posted by PEI330Ci:
Kool, I don't own the cables, I use them. So you see, there's no benifit to me having them except for my ears. I don't bring them up to brag, but simply to share something that is working well for me. Other's have recently made positive comments on a Deck change, I feel that the cables have made a larger difference in SQ in my system than a deck change. Not to discredit changing a deck, but nobody challenged the positive remarks made from that experience.
I recently put a Home CD transport in my car that retailed for $5000 US when it was new. I've heard this exact transport used in some home 2 channel systems worth over $50,000 US so I know it's capabilities. When I put this transport in my car, I did get a nice improvement in the SQ, but it was not as drastic as the forementioned KCAG cable change. So to me, going to the 7990 (which I may be doing) would be less of a benifit to the SQ than using a good set of cables.
To be fair, the rest of my equipment and the install is or will be top level.
I remember hearing once that 10% of an audio system's budget should be spent on cables. I bet most CCA members have inadvertantly fallen into this ratio, and I have as well. (That should give you a clue as to the value of my total system)
I find it ironic that most of the users of truely expensive cables have small egos.
Adam
Kool, I don't own the cables, I use them. So you see, there's no benifit to me having them except for my ears. I don't bring them up to brag, but simply to share something that is working well for me. Other's have recently made positive comments on a Deck change, I feel that the cables have made a larger difference in SQ in my system than a deck change. Not to discredit changing a deck, but nobody challenged the positive remarks made from that experience.
I recently put a Home CD transport in my car that retailed for $5000 US when it was new. I've heard this exact transport used in some home 2 channel systems worth over $50,000 US so I know it's capabilities. When I put this transport in my car, I did get a nice improvement in the SQ, but it was not as drastic as the forementioned KCAG cable change. So to me, going to the 7990 (which I may be doing) would be less of a benifit to the SQ than using a good set of cables.
To be fair, the rest of my equipment and the install is or will be top level.
I remember hearing once that 10% of an audio system's budget should be spent on cables. I bet most CCA members have inadvertantly fallen into this ratio, and I have as well. (That should give you a clue as to the value of my total system)
I find it ironic that most of the users of truely expensive cables have small egos.
Adam
Sure a high end deck, such as the 7990, alone might make a very minimal difference in SQ, but the fact that it uses a fibre optic cable to run the signal to the trunk makes buying a digital system a smarter move in my opinion than dishing out similar $ on cables that are susceptible to noise. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
05-29-2004, 09:06 AM
#18
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
^^^ and that I totally agree with you about.
I missed your point about the fiber optic's benifits over anologue cables. My reply was probably a bit over the top because of that. My reply wasn't directly aimed at you either.
Now that I've completely de-railed the thread:
My first experience with an optical system in a car was back in the early 90's when Alpine had a separate D/A converter for mounting in the trunk. I think it was like 2500 bucks or something. At the time I thought it was a bit extreme for car audio....
Now I'm out shopping around for processors and 2500 bucks buys a an aweful lot more. My current deck (DVA-7996) offers an optical output. I'm open to all options including a fiber optical output to a rear mounted processor. But, I feel that I'm still stuck having to run an analogue signal to my amps...so cables come back into the question.
Here's my experience with noise rejection and interconnect:
I've had a mirad of electrical problems in my car, all caused by me in one way or another. BMW uses a very different grounding scheme to help eliminate electrical noise to factory installed computers and other devices. My HID headlight ground for example is in the rear seat area above the wheel well. My point is that I've got a ton of wires carrying current in my car...all over the car. So I feel that I'm an excellent canidate to share my noise problems. Well...I would be...except I don't have any. Here is how I got to this silent place.
1.) Never run interconnect next to large power wires (read 8 awg or larger)
2.) Never run speaker cable next to large power wires (I had a problem with this that kicked my *** until I figured it out. I had a small amount of excess wire in my trunk coiled next to a 4 awg power wire)
3.) If you have to cross a power wire, do so at a 90 degree angle.
4.) Run all stereo grounds directly back to your battery. What I've found, is that components further away from your power source that are grounded to the chasis will prefer to route current through the interconnect negitive wire. BMWs use a lot of epoxies to hold the chasis together, and epoxy isn't conductive. So it is conceivable that a chasis ground for something like my headlights, may be next to my amplfier ground, and will choose to route noisey current through my amp.
Anyway...after lots of time pulling my hair out, I found out it's not just interconnect that can cause noise in your system. So using the fiber optical connection in some cases may have no effect on system noise. That said, it sure takes a lot of pre-amps, cable, and input stages out of a signal path that would otherwise color the sound in some small or large way.
I'm up for optical, but it's the wallet that's giving me the evil eye!
Adam
I missed your point about the fiber optic's benifits over anologue cables. My reply was probably a bit over the top because of that. My reply wasn't directly aimed at you either.
Now that I've completely de-railed the thread:
My first experience with an optical system in a car was back in the early 90's when Alpine had a separate D/A converter for mounting in the trunk. I think it was like 2500 bucks or something. At the time I thought it was a bit extreme for car audio....
Now I'm out shopping around for processors and 2500 bucks buys a an aweful lot more. My current deck (DVA-7996) offers an optical output. I'm open to all options including a fiber optical output to a rear mounted processor. But, I feel that I'm still stuck having to run an analogue signal to my amps...so cables come back into the question.
Here's my experience with noise rejection and interconnect:
I've had a mirad of electrical problems in my car, all caused by me in one way or another. BMW uses a very different grounding scheme to help eliminate electrical noise to factory installed computers and other devices. My HID headlight ground for example is in the rear seat area above the wheel well. My point is that I've got a ton of wires carrying current in my car...all over the car. So I feel that I'm an excellent canidate to share my noise problems. Well...I would be...except I don't have any. Here is how I got to this silent place.
1.) Never run interconnect next to large power wires (read 8 awg or larger)
2.) Never run speaker cable next to large power wires (I had a problem with this that kicked my *** until I figured it out. I had a small amount of excess wire in my trunk coiled next to a 4 awg power wire)
3.) If you have to cross a power wire, do so at a 90 degree angle.
4.) Run all stereo grounds directly back to your battery. What I've found, is that components further away from your power source that are grounded to the chasis will prefer to route current through the interconnect negitive wire. BMWs use a lot of epoxies to hold the chasis together, and epoxy isn't conductive. So it is conceivable that a chasis ground for something like my headlights, may be next to my amplfier ground, and will choose to route noisey current through my amp.
Anyway...after lots of time pulling my hair out, I found out it's not just interconnect that can cause noise in your system. So using the fiber optical connection in some cases may have no effect on system noise. That said, it sure takes a lot of pre-amps, cable, and input stages out of a signal path that would otherwise color the sound in some small or large way.
I'm up for optical, but it's the wallet that's giving me the evil eye!
Adam
05-29-2004, 09:39 AM
#19
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
The placebo effect goes both ways, if you are convinced there is no difference you will do your best not to hear a difference.
Yeah an all digital/ fiber optic system should eliminate RCA issues but I don’t know if those technologies have any negatives since those are not things I play with at this time.
Back to analog, frankly a balanced system is the best way to go but you don’t see a lot of that in car audio.
As for color.. color is good
Yeah an all digital/ fiber optic system should eliminate RCA issues but I don’t know if those technologies have any negatives since those are not things I play with at this time.
Back to analog, frankly a balanced system is the best way to go but you don’t see a lot of that in car audio.
As for color.. color is good
