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Ask Me Anything About Audio System Design
Not to sound smart but my belief is that talk is cheap, the only thing i have to say is that theory gives you a place to start in a car but because the cabin of a vehicle cannot be modified to suit the enclosure, its all up to trial and error. That is fact and the only way you can argue this is to build a car with just your math and come beat me.
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Wouldn't a bandpass tuned to produce only one frequency schnitzle on a ported and tapped horn?
DB - LOL what's is a 'schnitzle'?
The two of you are going on about in-car vs outdoor like they're related. A tapped horn is a low tuned, highly efficient box that's uncomparable to SPL.
We are both talking about in car sound - which is called and acoustically couple space...
SPL Stands for Sound Pressure Level both systems produce sound so they each produce SPL - so I am not sure what it is your trying to say...
Apparently real-world SPL results don't matter, and Danley has it all figured out. Maybe Yuli with his bunch of subs didn't do something right on the design. If a tapped horn is meant for a large room, why think about its use in a vehicle? I would use one in a mini bus lol. Two different environments, you can't just shimmy over the same acoustical properties, however the efficiency is what, 12 or 24 dB over ported?
Two things here - Tapped horns can be used in a car if you can get them to fit - in dB drag, box size isn't the chock point. Using the same driver, amp and vehicle etc, if a kick *** ported system was put in one and an an equally kick *** Danley type of tapped horn was placed in the other and both where teaked correctly - the tapped system would likely lead by at least 6dB but in theory could be 3 times that...
Just what is a tapped horn supposed to do from _ to _ HZ?
The frequency is controled by the box volume - bigger = lower small = higher f3's...
18Hz is straightforward to achive with Danley's approach...
To me, in the end, that box looks like a tiny ported box with a really long port, inside of a car, and the outside of the car is the listening area lol. A ported box in a car is like a wack 6th order bandpass?, it's a ported box firing into a some-what sealed one without a port length (maybe the windows as ports with zero lengths?).
No 45's in the corners, why? Do you calculate for smoother corners? Is that a combination of theorhetical & actual results?
In a walled off trunk, if a ported box has everything firing forewards, why is it better for the box to stretch to the back of the trunk? Is this because the wave goes to the back of the car and then to the front, producing a longer wave-length, and lower frequency? Is the baffle supposed to minimize all rear-ward waves or is it better to let the waves from the inside of the entire box pass through it easily? Like if you were to seal off the sides, it would be a sealed trunk, but would you want to fiberglass the entire baffle too?
How do you eliminate standing waves? Is ported & sealed different? In a sealed box, is it better for the longer dimensions to have a 45's in the corners, maybe all of them? What's the best shape to eliminate standing waves - an egg, circle, hexagon, maybe all dimensions with 45's (like the outside of a box is square, with the inside corners looking rectangular-hexagonal)?
Good questions I only answered a few - Internal box axial mode standings waves are determined why dividing 1130 / the boxes internal dimension 1130 / H = x: 1130 / H = x: 1130 / w = x...
As for the others, while they are good it is clear that you need to learn a little more about the basics, as this is a tread for advanced builders...
Sorry - you should look up those books that i mentioned...
DB - LOL what's is a 'schnitzle'?
The two of you are going on about in-car vs outdoor like they're related. A tapped horn is a low tuned, highly efficient box that's uncomparable to SPL.
We are both talking about in car sound - which is called and acoustically couple space...
SPL Stands for Sound Pressure Level both systems produce sound so they each produce SPL - so I am not sure what it is your trying to say...
Apparently real-world SPL results don't matter, and Danley has it all figured out. Maybe Yuli with his bunch of subs didn't do something right on the design. If a tapped horn is meant for a large room, why think about its use in a vehicle? I would use one in a mini bus lol. Two different environments, you can't just shimmy over the same acoustical properties, however the efficiency is what, 12 or 24 dB over ported?
Two things here - Tapped horns can be used in a car if you can get them to fit - in dB drag, box size isn't the chock point. Using the same driver, amp and vehicle etc, if a kick *** ported system was put in one and an an equally kick *** Danley type of tapped horn was placed in the other and both where teaked correctly - the tapped system would likely lead by at least 6dB but in theory could be 3 times that...
Just what is a tapped horn supposed to do from _ to _ HZ?
The frequency is controled by the box volume - bigger = lower small = higher f3's...
18Hz is straightforward to achive with Danley's approach...
To me, in the end, that box looks like a tiny ported box with a really long port, inside of a car, and the outside of the car is the listening area lol. A ported box in a car is like a wack 6th order bandpass?, it's a ported box firing into a some-what sealed one without a port length (maybe the windows as ports with zero lengths?).
No 45's in the corners, why? Do you calculate for smoother corners? Is that a combination of theorhetical & actual results?
In a walled off trunk, if a ported box has everything firing forewards, why is it better for the box to stretch to the back of the trunk? Is this because the wave goes to the back of the car and then to the front, producing a longer wave-length, and lower frequency? Is the baffle supposed to minimize all rear-ward waves or is it better to let the waves from the inside of the entire box pass through it easily? Like if you were to seal off the sides, it would be a sealed trunk, but would you want to fiberglass the entire baffle too?
How do you eliminate standing waves? Is ported & sealed different? In a sealed box, is it better for the longer dimensions to have a 45's in the corners, maybe all of them? What's the best shape to eliminate standing waves - an egg, circle, hexagon, maybe all dimensions with 45's (like the outside of a box is square, with the inside corners looking rectangular-hexagonal)?
Good questions I only answered a few - Internal box axial mode standings waves are determined why dividing 1130 / the boxes internal dimension 1130 / H = x: 1130 / H = x: 1130 / w = x...
As for the others, while they are good it is clear that you need to learn a little more about the basics, as this is a tread for advanced builders...
Sorry - you should look up those books that i mentioned...
Last edited by dogbaker; Nov 15, 2010 at 07:09 PM.
500 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 537
Well you are on the right path but there is more here to understand.
<snip>
The answer is it depends on Pressure (Voltage), Resistance each hose. The longer hose obviously has more capacitance (but once it’s full - it's full) and it's just as obvious that as there is also more surface area or drag, creating more resistance...
Assuming that same amount of water pressure remains constant for each hose and the hoses are identical other then in length - the water coming out of the longer hose will be exiting faster!
<snip>
The answer is it depends on Pressure (Voltage), Resistance each hose. The longer hose obviously has more capacitance (but once it’s full - it's full) and it's just as obvious that as there is also more surface area or drag, creating more resistance...
Assuming that same amount of water pressure remains constant for each hose and the hoses are identical other then in length - the water coming out of the longer hose will be exiting faster!
Originally Posted by dogbaker
Think of your tap as a power supply or an amplifier – they are suppose to output a constant Voltage into a fixed load – if your water supply is able to supply them both with the same amount pressure into each of their fixed loads, the electrons/water will be traveling faster due to the higher resistance in the longer cable... basic algebra...
Originally Posted by dogbaker
You want more proof - go turn on your garden hose and once a steady flow comes out the end - press your thumb against the flow - less water will pass (as evidenced by a swelling in the hose) but the water passing your thumb will be traveling faster...
Originally Posted by dogbaker
That force can be viewed as Voltage - Voltage is a product of Resistance x the flow of Current (water) - the more resistance the more electrical pressure, pressure is perceivable as a force of mass (water/electrons) x velocity...
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Not to sound smart but my belief is that talk is cheap, the only thing i have to say is that theory gives you a place to start in a car but because the cabin of a vehicle cannot be modified to suit the enclosure, its all up to trial and error. That is fact and the only way you can argue this is to build a car with just your math and come beat me.
Building a one note generator is easier then building a multitone hi fi system by a factor of at least 10x...
SPL Market place represnets less then 1% of total consumer spending in our industry - in other words you represnt a minority voice - so go hang out with you own kind...
This tread is for audiophiles, not bass heads...
Over and out!
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Oh please it will not, simply because of pipe friction. If the end of the longer hose was constricted then the velocity would increase but for the same cross sectional area the longer hose will have reduced flow.
Wrong again, see above.
This is because the flow rate was reduced and therefore the pressure was increased immediately behind the restriction (Poiseuille's Law). Not a good analogy for resistance in different length hoses and especially not for electricity.
Fair enough.
Wrong again, see above.
This is because the flow rate was reduced and therefore the pressure was increased immediately behind the restriction (Poiseuille's Law). Not a good analogy for resistance in different length hoses and especially not for electricity.
Fair enough.
But...
I was responding in context to some else’s example, to encourage them to start seeing that there is more going on here... I simply defined and fix some variables, if you will, nothing more...
Baby step attempt to stear a big ship!
However, IF I understood you correctly, you are off -in that if you fail to understand that pure resistance will in fact cause an increase in the rate of electron flow (not talking about fluids here) and does within in the audio bandwidth - 20Hz to 20KHz... And that it varies by frequency and temperature..., cable diameter, metal purity, innate inductance and capacitances alone with EMI/EMF and general effects of ingression and egression... and so on...
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Not to sound smart but my belief is that talk is cheap, the only thing i have to say is that theory gives you a place to start in a car but because the cabin of a vehicle cannot be modified to suit the enclosure, its all up to trial and error. That is fact and the only way you can argue this is to build a car with just your math and come beat me.
Thread Starter
50 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 230
Sorry - I love musicial systems not bass generators - i have grown beyond it...
Last edited by dogbaker; Nov 15, 2010 at 07:41 PM.
0 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 34
Components at 100wrms @4ohm , powering them with 50wrms-60wrms, will the missing 40-50rwrms make a huge difference in quality?
If you dont mind can you check out my thread I posted asking for help. I seen this thread after I posted.
If you dont mind can you check out my thread I posted asking for help. I seen this thread after I posted.
