Does it Make a Difference?
10-07-2010, 10:31 PM
#12
0 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 26
i would say the ranks IMO would be
Decks - they process the sound being played. 1 the most noticable difference. the Source tells everything what to do!
Deadening - as long as it's done properly can make a huge diffence in speaker output and midbass. Gotta seal the doors tho.
Box - assume this includes a subwoofer, add to the overall sound. allows your system to play notes other wise unheard without one. tuning (ported) or sealed makes a huge diffence to. sealed in most cases a tighter bass. where ported is usualy better lows.
Amps - adds added power to speakers allowing them to play cleaner when setup poperly. can take stress off head unit.(no need to use IC on deck)
Speakers - higher the price most the time = a more dynamic speaker. able to play more notes with more emmmfff. cleaner and louder.
Cables - nothin most will notice. but if your spend money on gear added noise resistance doesn't hurt.
Decks - they process the sound being played. 1 the most noticable difference. the Source tells everything what to do!
Deadening - as long as it's done properly can make a huge diffence in speaker output and midbass. Gotta seal the doors tho.
Box - assume this includes a subwoofer, add to the overall sound. allows your system to play notes other wise unheard without one. tuning (ported) or sealed makes a huge diffence to. sealed in most cases a tighter bass. where ported is usualy better lows.
Amps - adds added power to speakers allowing them to play cleaner when setup poperly. can take stress off head unit.(no need to use IC on deck)
Speakers - higher the price most the time = a more dynamic speaker. able to play more notes with more emmmfff. cleaner and louder.
Cables - nothin most will notice. but if your spend money on gear added noise resistance doesn't hurt.
10-07-2010, 11:15 PM
#13
my opinion:
AMPS-not in their linear range
CABLES-not if they're copper wire cables of sufficient capacity
DECK-it can if sound processing is being used, but not so much the difference in 24 bit vs 1bit dac, 8x over sampling, copper chassis etc...
SPEAKERS-definitely
ENCLOSURES-definitely
DEADENING-if the vehicle was noisy to start with certainly, combined with sealing can have a very noticeable effect.
AMPS-not in their linear range
CABLES-not if they're copper wire cables of sufficient capacity
DECK-it can if sound processing is being used, but not so much the difference in 24 bit vs 1bit dac, 8x over sampling, copper chassis etc...
SPEAKERS-definitely
ENCLOSURES-definitely
DEADENING-if the vehicle was noisy to start with certainly, combined with sealing can have a very noticeable effect.
10-08-2010, 07:36 AM
#14
my opinion:
AMPS-yes, especially at lower frequencies where impedance of speakers may cause problems. Otherwise differences are suble, but noticeable.
CABLES-Yes if poorly designed and not well shielded. but minor issue
DECK-Sure. the cheap decks use all sorts of dsp and design compromises to cut costs. Especially in mp3 playback, eq, CD error correction etc. D/A and A/D. For example, if you are using an mp3 player linked thru auxiliary input, you are adding an extra D/A-A/D conversion stage and I have noticed huge difference in sound quality vs mp3 burned CD.
SPEAKERS-BIGGEST INFLUNCE. Speaker distortion is on order of 1-10% thd. which is a zilion times more than any amp.
Somone suggested that all polypropylene, mylar, alum cones all are the same. shakes head. this is utter nonsense.
ENCLOSURES-yup for subs and for midbass if used under Fr
DEADENING-yes for rattles and road noise.
Biggest effect after selecting quality speakers: Install and tuning. Install cant make crappy speakers sound good but can ruin sound of excellent speakers.
AMPS-yes, especially at lower frequencies where impedance of speakers may cause problems. Otherwise differences are suble, but noticeable.
CABLES-Yes if poorly designed and not well shielded. but minor issue
DECK-Sure. the cheap decks use all sorts of dsp and design compromises to cut costs. Especially in mp3 playback, eq, CD error correction etc. D/A and A/D. For example, if you are using an mp3 player linked thru auxiliary input, you are adding an extra D/A-A/D conversion stage and I have noticed huge difference in sound quality vs mp3 burned CD.
SPEAKERS-BIGGEST INFLUNCE. Speaker distortion is on order of 1-10% thd. which is a zilion times more than any amp.
Somone suggested that all polypropylene, mylar, alum cones all are the same. shakes head. this is utter nonsense.
ENCLOSURES-yup for subs and for midbass if used under Fr
DEADENING-yes for rattles and road noise.
Biggest effect after selecting quality speakers: Install and tuning. Install cant make crappy speakers sound good but can ruin sound of excellent speakers.
10-08-2010, 04:58 PM
#18
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
ya know when your talking about subjective difference I don't get how there can be an argument... ever. It is simply personal opinion/ belief and how can your belief be of greater value than my belief or vice versa. I can say for a fact the term subjective has several meanings and if used one way subjectivity is the only way to decide anything, given another definition it is simply personal opinion and can be based on astrology.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subjective
What we are REALLY discussing is objective proof based on personal observation. This gets messy fast doesn't it... I have engaged in this discussion numerous times and have only used subjectivity on a few occasions. I think this is an objective argument.
Even when you disagree with a conclusion you cant say the data collector is wrong assuming they actually did the observation. Objective reasoning and the process used is easily a flawed process, but if performed in a controlled scientific manner there is no reason to assume the results are flawed.
If you hear differences in amps or wires... then do they really sound different?
If you don't hear differences in amps and wires... then does that mean they sound the same?
Simple question: is the testing you perform conclusive... is the testing biased... is it repeatable... is it verifiable... does the data drive you to a conclusion or does it simply support an opinion.
One of the problems with the wire sounds different crowd is there are no reasonable ways to measure "it sounds better", or "it opens up the stage" these are romantic terms and too imprecise and are at this time unmeasurable.
One of the problems with the all wire sounds the same crowd is "it measures the same" is meaningless if you are measuring the wrong thing... or you are measuring some of the correct things and not fully understanding the ramifications.
The car is so hostile to good audio reproduction I hear maybe 3 cars a year that really provide the illusion of real music being reproduced (I listen to hundreds a year). The differences in cable or amplification (whose jobs are to simply transfer and amplify without altering) are nominal for 98% of the populace.
And for goodness sakes all amps dont sound the same they dont even measure the same in the audible spectra, an engineer should know that (I flippin hate engineers who do cook-book engineering and wont get out of their cube and do due diligence (use the O-scope and listen). But the electrical difference is minimal and can be eliminated so a well designed amp should sound like the next well designed amp.
Speakers
damping (this makes a huge difference in the door mid-bass lower bass response)
HU
amp/wire
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subjective
What we are REALLY discussing is objective proof based on personal observation. This gets messy fast doesn't it... I have engaged in this discussion numerous times and have only used subjectivity on a few occasions. I think this is an objective argument.
Even when you disagree with a conclusion you cant say the data collector is wrong assuming they actually did the observation. Objective reasoning and the process used is easily a flawed process, but if performed in a controlled scientific manner there is no reason to assume the results are flawed.
If you hear differences in amps or wires... then do they really sound different?
If you don't hear differences in amps and wires... then does that mean they sound the same?
Simple question: is the testing you perform conclusive... is the testing biased... is it repeatable... is it verifiable... does the data drive you to a conclusion or does it simply support an opinion.
One of the problems with the wire sounds different crowd is there are no reasonable ways to measure "it sounds better", or "it opens up the stage" these are romantic terms and too imprecise and are at this time unmeasurable.
One of the problems with the all wire sounds the same crowd is "it measures the same" is meaningless if you are measuring the wrong thing... or you are measuring some of the correct things and not fully understanding the ramifications.
The car is so hostile to good audio reproduction I hear maybe 3 cars a year that really provide the illusion of real music being reproduced (I listen to hundreds a year). The differences in cable or amplification (whose jobs are to simply transfer and amplify without altering) are nominal for 98% of the populace.
And for goodness sakes all amps dont sound the same they dont even measure the same in the audible spectra, an engineer should know that (I flippin hate engineers who do cook-book engineering and wont get out of their cube and do due diligence (use the O-scope and listen). But the electrical difference is minimal and can be eliminated so a well designed amp should sound like the next well designed amp.
Speakers
damping (this makes a huge difference in the door mid-bass lower bass response)
HU
amp/wire
10-08-2010, 05:42 PM
#19
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 16,855
John, I totally agree with everything you said. Why is it then that when people are asked to point out all of these differences in double blind testing that they can't? Why is it that as soon as they don't know they are listening to a $1000 cable or a $3000 amp that they can't discern it from one costing 1/10th the price? To me, this is the part that is hard to argue.. 
And for whomever wants to suggest it - I will not entertain the notion that a genuine ABX box colors or alters the signal to the point it invalidates the test. This is a precision piece that was created to SHOW the differences in equipment, not dispel them.
And for whomever wants to suggest it - I will not entertain the notion that a genuine ABX box colors or alters the signal to the point it invalidates the test. This is a precision piece that was created to SHOW the differences in equipment, not dispel them.
10-08-2010, 06:16 PM
#20
Honestly in my opinion processing is the most important thing to have in a car install. I know its not on the list per say but can be applied to a few mainly amps and decks. Something with crossovers and slopes at the minimum but even that isnt generally enough in a car enviroment. I mean we are talking about the biggest difference to the sound and to me that is it. Personally i went deck route and am quite happy with my 505/701 combo as it is so easy to do on the fly processing.
