Has anyone ever noticed......
09-29-2003, 08:02 PM
#1
.....that when listening to a car(or any stereo) your eyes play tricks on your ears?
If you were to sit in "the best" sounding car, wearing a blindfold....you would hear the music exactly the way it was meat to be heard, or the way it was recorded.
Yet if you sat in the same car without the blindfold and you saw the speaker placement....you would actually believe you hear minor defects in the way the speakers were set up.
For example you see speakers in kickpanels, your eyes tell your brain that the speakers are low and therefore you think that the soundstage is low...untill you close your eyes.
I feel that all judges for sound quality competiton should be made to wear a blindfold while judging a car. That way everybody gets judged fairly. So people with speakers in the dash don't nessicarily get higher scores than people with speakers in their kickpanels.
Anyway, just some food for thought. Anybody else have an oppinon on that?
If you were to sit in "the best" sounding car, wearing a blindfold....you would hear the music exactly the way it was meat to be heard, or the way it was recorded.
Yet if you sat in the same car without the blindfold and you saw the speaker placement....you would actually believe you hear minor defects in the way the speakers were set up.
For example you see speakers in kickpanels, your eyes tell your brain that the speakers are low and therefore you think that the soundstage is low...untill you close your eyes.
I feel that all judges for sound quality competiton should be made to wear a blindfold while judging a car. That way everybody gets judged fairly. So people with speakers in the dash don't nessicarily get higher scores than people with speakers in their kickpanels.
Anyway, just some food for thought. Anybody else have an oppinon on that?
09-30-2003, 06:40 AM
#2
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
Judging SQ is always controversial. But good judges will judge a car fairly and a lot of them close their eyes and let their ears do the listening, regardless of what they see. But yes, the best trick is to make everything disappear so that when someone judges at your car, they have no idea where everything is placed. Unfortunately, that usually means that you have to cut up the vehicle pretty good for your front end components to make them invisible AND work properly.
09-30-2003, 07:22 PM
#3
LOL, yea it's a bitch.....that's why I like door speakers...because there in a factory location and there"invisible"....but you can also do quite a bit with speaker positioning in the factory locations by adding shims under the speaker to get good staging. However, in competition speakers in factory locations don't score you as many bonus points as a good set of kicks or a totally rebuilt dash.
10-01-2003, 06:04 AM
#4
1000 Watt CAFz'r
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Posts: 1,649
Well, setting up for SQ is generally about equalizing path lengths and proper positioning of the drivers, relative to the seating postion(s). It's an ellusive art to get this all to set up right in a car without having to heavily process the crap out of it. Factory locations are usually not so good, unless you have something like an older BMW with factory kickpanel locations. You CAN achieve some SQ goals with factory locations but as a package, they generally suck hinny to achieve ultimate sonic bliss 
All depends on how far you want to take it.
All depends on how far you want to take it.
10-01-2003, 07:12 PM
#5
When I look at most cars in competition, I see comp sets in the kick panels.
But there's the odd car that has the comp set in the dash, and actually doesn't sound too bad. How is this achieved? There must be some serious use of reflection off the windshield or perhaps some funky angles on the baffles for the speakers.
I know that there are a few ways to set up speakers so that they reflect off the windshield and create a really nice stage. I see it done mostly with tweeters, but I suppose it can work with a midrange driver as well.Is there an application that will not work at all if it's being reflected off the windsheild?
But there's the odd car that has the comp set in the dash, and actually doesn't sound too bad. How is this achieved? There must be some serious use of reflection off the windshield or perhaps some funky angles on the baffles for the speakers.
I know that there are a few ways to set up speakers so that they reflect off the windshield and create a really nice stage. I see it done mostly with tweeters, but I suppose it can work with a midrange driver as well.Is there an application that will not work at all if it's being reflected off the windsheild?
10-02-2003, 07:05 AM
#6
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Posts: 1,649
There's been extensive discussions on this topic of dash mounting and A-pillars on CARSOUND in the forum Mark Eldridge hosts. The general conclusion is that you can't cheat physics. You can get close and get something sounding pretty good, but to get that last bit tweeked out, very very difficult. Things have gotten so advanced now that a lot of people are at that last-little-bit part now. Long story short, best location for front end drivers still seems to be in kicks pushed as far forward and out as possible............. in the most general terms of course.
10-02-2003, 07:32 PM
#7
I kinda went on a search for that topic earlier today on carsound, but couldn't find it....what user name does Eldridge go by on Carsound?
I like kickpanel installs...I've always liked the sound but when a dash is built properly by someone that knows what their doing...it can be one of the most awe inspiring things ever.
Tonight I sat down after reading the last post you put up in this topic and listened to my brand new Wharfdale home speakers. I listened to them from way down low(I have adjustable speaker stands) and I listened to them at eye level...which to me is where home speakers should be located.....and I couldn't help but notice the difference in sound.....it wasn't a huge difference but it was enough that I noticed it. Personnally I liked the eye level position much better. Perhaps it was my eyes playing tricks on my ears but I definatly liked eye level better.
The soundstage was up high where it should be, the sound was deeper....not wider though as I kept the speakers at the same width as always.
Also, I find that the higher you mount your twweters, the better the soundstage. I've listened to quite a few cars that have kick mounted tweets and the stage is below eye level.
However, I would imaging you would require some fairly good proccessing and crossover tweaking to acheive this.
I like kickpanel installs...I've always liked the sound but when a dash is built properly by someone that knows what their doing...it can be one of the most awe inspiring things ever.
Tonight I sat down after reading the last post you put up in this topic and listened to my brand new Wharfdale home speakers. I listened to them from way down low(I have adjustable speaker stands) and I listened to them at eye level...which to me is where home speakers should be located.....and I couldn't help but notice the difference in sound.....it wasn't a huge difference but it was enough that I noticed it. Personnally I liked the eye level position much better. Perhaps it was my eyes playing tricks on my ears but I definatly liked eye level better.
The soundstage was up high where it should be, the sound was deeper....not wider though as I kept the speakers at the same width as always.
Also, I find that the higher you mount your twweters, the better the soundstage. I've listened to quite a few cars that have kick mounted tweets and the stage is below eye level.
However, I would imaging you would require some fairly good proccessing and crossover tweaking to acheive this.
10-03-2003, 04:57 AM
#9
i have my tweeters mounted in my kickpanels,and with the proper angles you can acheive a higher sound stage.my setup is more for sq,as it is a daily driver.just ask bootleg guy(bryce).one day i'll build a dedicated sq vehicle,i already have all the stuff and skills,just need the time [img]tongue.gif[/img] 
10-03-2003, 06:19 AM
#10
1000 Watt CAFz'r
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Mark Eldridge has an entire section that he hosts on the Car Sound forums
Cars are awful for sound especially because of all the glass and hard surfaces. Hard to comapre to a home environment although the physics are still the same. From all the surfing and chatting I've done over the years, seperating the mids from the tweeters messes up the laws of physics with regards to accurate sound reproduction. You cannot get around it. I'll never proclaim to be any expert on this topic, but the best of the best in car audio still believe that kick-panels generally are the best way to go and both drivers should be mounted there and stay close together. A-pillar and dash mounting a tweeter with the mid in the kicks I think comes a close second with regard to components. Using electronics is a bandaid approach to fixing the issues of bad sound in a car............ especially when it's excessively done. When you design/build a front stage in a car, it should sound good before you EQ it or mess with any time alignment and processing. That stuff is just for tweeking the finer points. If you're not good before processing, then something is wrong with your design. Ok, that being said, people are on budgets with money AND time when building. So then you compromise........ and tweek electronically to a greater extent. But that means you WILL be limited to how close you can get to euphoric perfection (!) with regards to sound reporduction in your car. It's annoying, but it's the truth........... until someone can proove to me otherwise.
Of note, if you are doing tweeters on the dash or in the A-pillars and mid in the kicks, you want the mid to be able to play up to the 6K range and the tweeter takes over from there. That usually means a 5.25" mid is a better choice as a lot of 6.5" break up as they get closer to the 6K range. I often get a response like this.......... but I want bass up front and there's no way a 5.25" can do that. I need an 8" or something don't I now ???? Well, you ever seen a portable boom box.......... 4" drivers that somehow pound out deep boomy bass. YEah, a 5.25" done properly can get really nice and low. Yes, that's a secret, so don't tell anyone ok
Cars are awful for sound especially because of all the glass and hard surfaces. Hard to comapre to a home environment although the physics are still the same. From all the surfing and chatting I've done over the years, seperating the mids from the tweeters messes up the laws of physics with regards to accurate sound reproduction. You cannot get around it. I'll never proclaim to be any expert on this topic, but the best of the best in car audio still believe that kick-panels generally are the best way to go and both drivers should be mounted there and stay close together. A-pillar and dash mounting a tweeter with the mid in the kicks I think comes a close second with regard to components. Using electronics is a bandaid approach to fixing the issues of bad sound in a car............ especially when it's excessively done. When you design/build a front stage in a car, it should sound good before you EQ it or mess with any time alignment and processing. That stuff is just for tweeking the finer points. If you're not good before processing, then something is wrong with your design. Ok, that being said, people are on budgets with money AND time when building. So then you compromise........ and tweek electronically to a greater extent. But that means you WILL be limited to how close you can get to euphoric perfection (!) with regards to sound reporduction in your car. It's annoying, but it's the truth........... until someone can proove to me otherwise.
Of note, if you are doing tweeters on the dash or in the A-pillars and mid in the kicks, you want the mid to be able to play up to the 6K range and the tweeter takes over from there. That usually means a 5.25" mid is a better choice as a lot of 6.5" break up as they get closer to the 6K range. I often get a response like this.......... but I want bass up front and there's no way a 5.25" can do that. I need an 8" or something don't I now ???? Well, you ever seen a portable boom box.......... 4" drivers that somehow pound out deep boomy bass. YEah, a 5.25" done properly can get really nice and low. Yes, that's a secret, so don't tell anyone ok
