Has anyone ever noticed......
Yep, it's all about the pathlengths. I do not know of a serious SQ car that has a dash mounted front stage that does not rely on heavy amounts of digital processing and time delay to achieve what can be done with kick panels and much less, if any, processing. And of those 'dash' cars, many are '1 seat' cars meaning they sound best from the drivers seat. This seems to be more popular in Europe than here, probably because of right-hand drive. Anyway, I hear what you are saying about visual localization. If you look at the speaker, chances are that is where you think it the sound will be coming from. Interestingly enough there, I've even bent my head down towards the kick panel and looked right at it yet heard sounds over my head. Yeah I know it sounds really strange, but that's how I heard it! Of the kick panels that Dukk and I have done in my cars, we've never had an issue with poor height. It's always been above the dash, but with some rainbow effect. I found my ESP-2 helped a little with that.
It's been said many times that mids are the most affected by proper pathlengths and are key to defining a good center and image, while tweeters are less pathlength dependent but can define your width and height which is why a-pillars work. I like keeping my mid and tweet together so I get good coincedental sound.
It's been said many times that mids are the most affected by proper pathlengths and are key to defining a good center and image, while tweeters are less pathlength dependent but can define your width and height which is why a-pillars work. I like keeping my mid and tweet together so I get good coincedental sound.
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
And here's another trick. If you have good PLD's between you left and right mid AND you're using A-pillar mounted tweets, do time alignment between the left tweeter and the left mid............ and same on the right side. Do this instead of time alignment between left and right sides.............. if you're PLD's are good, you can do this sucessfully and it makes a difference in a big way if there a difference between the tweets and mid distance wise. Mind you, if both drivers in the kicks, no point.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
Boy you guys are really into this stuff!
Tom, I really appreciate the posts. I'm new to this level of audio in a car and can use all the info I can get on speaker placement and mounting. Having spent years playing with speaker positions in high end home applications, I know the results that you speak of with regard to placement. The phase issue is really important to me too, my ears seem to pick up that stuff really easy. It's kind of a curse sometimes, but noticing out of phase drivers certainly helps tune a car fast.
Slingshot2, I'd have to agree with you about the blind fold. Either that or put an acoustically transparent screen around the inside of your car. [img]smile.gif[/img] Having spent a ton of time doing "blindfolded" speaker testing for a high end home speaker manufacturer, I can truly attest to the eyes fooling the ears. There are some really good audio Placebos out there! If you really believe something is going produce a certain result, it biases you in that direction.
For me the bottom line is SQ, I don't care how I get it. I'm fortunate to have a very understanding wife, the finances, and the time to ATTEMPT to get it right. I've currently got a 2001 BMW 330Ci torn down to the frame to get there. So any extreme recomendations will be considered, I've gone to far to turn back! I was originally going to place the 6"s, 4"s, and tweeters on the doors at exactly the same distance from the listener's ears.I was going to build separate enclosures for the 6"s and 4"s with the drivers aimed within 30 degrees of both the driver's and passenger's ear possition. But this would place all the speakers really close to the listeners ears. Also as mentioned above, the pathlength difference for the mids would be large. I do have the processing availble to offset this, but I have to agree that it's better to start with as good a base as possible.
Here is a question for anyone who's interested to answer. Does the gain in soundstage width and depth from mounting mids in the kicks offset the loss of phase coherence between the mid and the bass driver in the door?
Adam
Tom, I really appreciate the posts. I'm new to this level of audio in a car and can use all the info I can get on speaker placement and mounting. Having spent years playing with speaker positions in high end home applications, I know the results that you speak of with regard to placement. The phase issue is really important to me too, my ears seem to pick up that stuff really easy. It's kind of a curse sometimes, but noticing out of phase drivers certainly helps tune a car fast.
Slingshot2, I'd have to agree with you about the blind fold. Either that or put an acoustically transparent screen around the inside of your car. [img]smile.gif[/img] Having spent a ton of time doing "blindfolded" speaker testing for a high end home speaker manufacturer, I can truly attest to the eyes fooling the ears. There are some really good audio Placebos out there! If you really believe something is going produce a certain result, it biases you in that direction.
For me the bottom line is SQ, I don't care how I get it. I'm fortunate to have a very understanding wife, the finances, and the time to ATTEMPT to get it right. I've currently got a 2001 BMW 330Ci torn down to the frame to get there. So any extreme recomendations will be considered, I've gone to far to turn back! I was originally going to place the 6"s, 4"s, and tweeters on the doors at exactly the same distance from the listener's ears.I was going to build separate enclosures for the 6"s and 4"s with the drivers aimed within 30 degrees of both the driver's and passenger's ear possition. But this would place all the speakers really close to the listeners ears. Also as mentioned above, the pathlength difference for the mids would be large. I do have the processing availble to offset this, but I have to agree that it's better to start with as good a base as possible.
Here is a question for anyone who's interested to answer. Does the gain in soundstage width and depth from mounting mids in the kicks offset the loss of phase coherence between the mid and the bass driver in the door?
Adam
Hey Adam, I noticed you live in PEI. Are you related to any MacDonald's, Fage's or Blakeney's?
Most of my family is from PEI and NovaScotia.
Anyway, a little off topic but, what can I use to image tweeters? Is there any specific track on the IASCA disk I can use?
[ October 07, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: slingshot2 ]
Most of my family is from PEI and NovaScotia.
Anyway, a little off topic but, what can I use to image tweeters? Is there any specific track on the IASCA disk I can use?
[ October 07, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: slingshot2 ]
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,484
Originally posted by Loud Brown Kicker Colt:
i have my tweeters mounted in my kickpanels,and with the proper angles you can acheive a higher sound stage.my setup is more for sq,as it is a daily driver.just ask bootleg guy(bryce).one day i'll build a dedicated sq vehicle,i already have all the stuff and skills,just need the time [img]tongue.gif[/img]
i have my tweeters mounted in my kickpanels,and with the proper angles you can acheive a higher sound stage.my setup is more for sq,as it is a daily driver.just ask bootleg guy(bryce).one day i'll build a dedicated sq vehicle,i already have all the stuff and skills,just need the time [img]tongue.gif[/img]
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
Adam, if you want to shoot me an email, we can talk BMW's. I use to have a 2000 328i sedan and now have an X5. So a little bit of time, not a lot thought, with them and car sterios.
PLD is very important in the lower end of the frequency spectrum. To equalize path lengths, the best place possible is to mount the drivers in the kick panel area. You cannot do equal PLD's iin doors. Not physically possible.
NEXT, why 3-way????? The more sources you have, the hard it is to tune. Spend the money on a higher end 2-way setup. It's all you need. A nice 6.5" two way setup or even a 5.25" setup. All you truly need is a 2-way setup in the front and a single sub. I personally think anything more is a waste. I know that the BMW doors have that 3-way setup in them.......... well mine did. But better to just leave the doors alone, run a set of kickpanels and run all new wiring........... leaving the factory wiring intact. Thus when it comes time to sell the car, you don't have to fix anything or replace anything............ even thogh you have said you have everything torn apart.
Anyways, like I said drop me an email and we can chatt some more about BMW's and SQ systems.
tkliem@markham.ca
PLD is very important in the lower end of the frequency spectrum. To equalize path lengths, the best place possible is to mount the drivers in the kick panel area. You cannot do equal PLD's iin doors. Not physically possible.
NEXT, why 3-way????? The more sources you have, the hard it is to tune. Spend the money on a higher end 2-way setup. It's all you need. A nice 6.5" two way setup or even a 5.25" setup. All you truly need is a 2-way setup in the front and a single sub. I personally think anything more is a waste. I know that the BMW doors have that 3-way setup in them.......... well mine did. But better to just leave the doors alone, run a set of kickpanels and run all new wiring........... leaving the factory wiring intact. Thus when it comes time to sell the car, you don't have to fix anything or replace anything............ even thogh you have said you have everything torn apart.
Anyways, like I said drop me an email and we can chatt some more about BMW's and SQ systems.
tkliem@markham.ca
I disagree about the 3-way is bad thing, but that's just my opinion. Using a 6.5/4/tweet combo can mean that your 4/tweet can be more easily placed into a kick panel area compared to a 6.5. Fitting a 6.5 in most cars these days isn't very easy unless you want to start cutting out metal. Trucks are more accomodating. But going with a 3-way setup isn't a bad way to go at all. I wouldn't say one is better over the other.
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Tom, I sent you an email. But for the others on the board, I"m way beyond selling the car. Too much sound deadening, and wire installed to let her go. Not to mention the big hole I cut in the back of the car for my sub box!
Wire for the speakers? Good idea..I've got 140 feet of Monster Cable M10.2s in the car. I've also successfully shoehorned a second yellow top in the engine compartment and enough 1/0 gauge wire to start a welding shop.
I'm having a ball here guys. Great to be sharing it with fellow SQ crazies.
Adam
Wire for the speakers? Good idea..I've got 140 feet of Monster Cable M10.2s in the car. I've also successfully shoehorned a second yellow top in the engine compartment and enough 1/0 gauge wire to start a welding shop.
I'm having a ball here guys. Great to be sharing it with fellow SQ crazies.
Adam
