pionkej

I did say I recognized who you were...I didn't say I follwed you around and read every post you made. I have no idea what all gear you own. The only thing I really remember is that you like to argue with people (that doesn't seem to have changed) and that you were blindly telling people Hertz made the best speakers ever in some threads while asking if the ML1600 is really better than the ML165 (because of Manu. rated power handling). That is what I remember.

If you think that you NEED an 8-10 speaker because you ONLY have 600w on tap, either you have no idea what you're talking about or you are afraid to build anything other than a sealed box.

You want to know how companies typically "design" a 10" sub that can handle 600w? They tell you to build a small box that has peaky output (not "SQ") so it can handle tons of power.

See my comment above about power. I tell you what, how about you pick out any 8-10" sub that can "handle" 600w like you want. I'll model it in the box the manufacturer recommends to use for that power handling and post the results. Since it seems space isn't the limiting factor in your looking for a 8-10" sub, just you misguided judgement, I will also pick a sub, 12-15" in size that will extend lower, have the same output, will model flatter, and will take LESS power. The advantages to my suggestion is that the larger sub WILL take less power (easier on your electrical system and leaving more dynamic headroom for the amp) and WILL need less excursion to reach the same level of output (as excursion goes up, so does distortion-NOT SQ-so you get better performance from lower distortion levels). This is pretty simple on your part...pick a sub. If I'm right, you just got a free, VALID suggestion. If I'm wrong...well, I'll admit that I was wrong.

And here is where the argumentative comment comes from. Instead of defending your point with science, you pull some offensive reference to the Muslim religion to basically say, "everybody with an opinion and a keyboard feels the need to share it...even if they are wrong." Well, in this case, you are wrong.

One last note, you DO know that if you built a horn-loaded box or t-line for an 8" sub, you would probably only need 50w or less to reach the output you seems to want right? Just wanted to make sure you were aware of that.

Challenge is open and waiting. I'm betting you are unwilling to accept it and learn a thing or two in the process, even though all it takes is you picking ONE sub and the rest is on me.

pionkej

WRONG. PLEASE take my challenge listed above and learn a thing or two. You do realize in making this comment that a 3db increase in output is considered "noticeable". A 3db increase takes 2x the power (600w to 1200w) to achieve. You are looking at increase the power by 1.25, which roughly translates to a .75db increase which you would likely NEVER hear. This is assuming you kept the same sub in the same box...8,10,12,15,18....it doesn't matter. That change in power will make nearly no difference in output.

Note 1: If you kept your 600w, and put the same sub in a properly designed ported box, you would likely get a 3db increase in output for free. That means what would have taken you 1200w to achieve in a sealed box, now only takes the 600w you already have.

Note 2: A 3db increase can also be achieved by doubling the number of speakers run in parallel. If you have the room, the latter is a better option. Again, more output for less power and less distortion because both subs are now working less hard.

pionkej

I saw you were online (and looking at this thread) for around 20 minutes before signing off...yet no response. I'm going to assume you will not participate in my challenge. So since you said you wanted the performance of an 8w7, I chose that. To prove my point, I chose to run JL's "mid-grade" W3 series. I used the largest the offered, the 13w3.

Your Selection:
Sub:JL 8w7
Cost: 449.95
Recommended Sealed Box: 1.875cu/ft
F3 (frequency where the sub is 3db down in output=half as loud): 36.64hz
Peak output (cabin gain not factored in): 110db@600w

My Selection:
Sub: JL 13w3
Cost: 319.95 (130.00 less expensive)
My Ported Box: 5cu/ft@24hz
F3 (frequency where the sub is 3db down in output=half as loud): 22.49hz (extends 14hz lower)
Power needed to reach 110db (same as 8w7@600w): 200w (1/3 the power of 8w7)
Peak output (cabin gain not factored in): 115db@600w (nearly 2x or 200% increase in output)

So it appears that I WAS right. I gave you a cheaper sub, that extended lower, was just as flat in response (SQ=no peaks), took less excursion to match output (SQ=lower distortion), and was 2x as loud on the power you have available.

Pictures are attached to back up what I just typed. I'm eagerly awaiting your response to this.

JL 8w7



JL 13w7@200w



JL 13w7@600w

Haunz

iTrader: (3)

In terms of sound quality you will be far better off giving a large driver less then rated power then giving a smaller driver rated power... Both in terms of keeping the stroke linear, and keeping power compression to a minimum...

pionkej

Cliff notes of the "novel" I wrote.

AAAAAAA

iTrader: (7)

hehe I guess you meant yes when you wrote no, because you went on to re-write what I just wrote but with different words.

Dukk

Although I agree with the vented box, and that one should always use the largest driver they can fit in the largest box they can fit, a 13W3 shouldn't go into a 5cuft box tuned to 24hz. Keep it more reasonable and model it in 2cuft tuned to 35hz. F3 will go up but it's a much more manageable and likely solution.

pionkej

May I ask why if space where no issue? The only potential problem (other than box size) is larger group delay which can be compensated for at the crossover point using time alignment.

unholysavage

iTrader: (1)

I've read what you've posted a few times, and the only conclusion that I can come up with is that you really don't know what you're talking about.

case in point: you just said "might underpower", which immediately leads me to believe that you somehow think that giving a sub less than RMS power will hurt it. I honestly hope that you're not that ill-informed when it comes power handling and clipping, but I won't be putting money on it.

if you're dead-set on trying to use all 600w RMS that you have on tap on small subs, and keep things musical and reliable, look into buying a pair of 8s. I'm with Haunz, pion, aaaa, Dukk etc - you really should be looking into a larger sub if high power handling, SPL, accuracy and reliability (in a single subwoofer solution) are what you're after.

Allan74

iTrader: (-1)

Listen. I'll get rid of all my high end and buy a half dozen Audiovox 18's and 30,000w of Pyle power along with a Ford Tempo and put you all to shame at the next 'Bass Nationals'.....LOL. After seeing some of the cars on 'SPL TV' on Youtube, I can't see it being too difficult to atleast compete

It's not my fault that you are not familiar with the equipment I have been talking about. Do some homework on the amplifiers I commented about BEFORE you tell me that I don't know what I am talking about.

Just quit twisting everything I say around to suit the opposite of your argument's standpoint.

Last I checked....Subs don't clip...LOL
I've been doing this for about 20 years now and have never cooked a sub due to shitty clipping power, so I guess I do know that much.

Perhaps I like to run lots of power because it really makes no difference to me and I simply consider it 'insurance' of sorts. I really can't recall the last time when things like 'budget' or being 'thrifty' led me to choose less power than I knew I should have.......which is the #1 reason behind most people's choices as it seems. I don't have that problem.

You really don't understand my SRx vs LRx reasoning ? IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EXTRA 150w POWER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 2 AMPS.

My SRx is a 2 channel mid level amp, my LRx (this part of it) is a high end mono channel.

They could be 100% identical power and I would STILL choose the LRx to run the 12.

Noise floor, impedance, dampening factor, class, current, efficiency, duty cycle.
YES, I HAVE TAKEN IT ALL INTO CONSIDERATION.........

NEXT ?