Why Wires All Sounds The Same (Speaker Level)
06-02-2005, 06:33 PM
#41
I once read somewhere that the human brain can only remember, in the context of doing a hearing comparison, for about 8 seconds.....
EG. When comparing two sets of speaker cables. You would have to listen to the two speaker cables no more than 8 seconds apart with everything else being equal to reliably notice a difference.
EG. When comparing two sets of speaker cables. You would have to listen to the two speaker cables no more than 8 seconds apart with everything else being equal to reliably notice a difference.
06-02-2005, 06:57 PM
#42
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
Ettore
BTW nice to see you posting again
I am not sure the argument presented in the web page has that much ultimate value. It addresses skin effect in a low freq system. Skin effect, if audible at all and not a false premise, should have minimal affect in the audible range (and even then only above 10-20,000 Hz). I suppose… the electrical affects could have some significance (i.e. harmonics) in the audible band but not one I would get my underwear in a wad over. The graphs are a nice touch and show that each cable marketing argument has value (much of the affect is in the audible band). I did not like the fact this was a text book paper (no real measurements just cut and paste). I have been inundated recently with articles and papers written by academics, they seldom have much value in real world situations.
The formulas in the article are not what I would have used in an AC system for inductive reactance or capacitive reactance. They are simple, BUT frequency dependant so the cables performance will be affected by the capacitance and the inductance of the cable. The quality of the preamp is an issue too since it only puts out milliamps, how the preamps outputs react to the combined impedance from the cable and amplifier input stage is the real question in my mind.
The article is interesting and it has technical merit, BUT it is a persuasionary article and has zero scientific value because of its bias. I don’t know why cables get everyone in a tizzy, they either make a sonic difference or they don’t. If you hear a difference buy the one that gives the best presentation, and meets your budget. If you don’t hear a difference then buy the one that suits your needs and budget.
I read an on line article recently that was very interesting on cable insulation. The author felt the insulation used in a cable WAS important since it is the insulation (dielectric) in a capacitor that determines its charge/discharge time as well as its capacity (in farads). This was rather thought provoking to me.
BTW nice to see you posting again
I am not sure the argument presented in the web page has that much ultimate value. It addresses skin effect in a low freq system. Skin effect, if audible at all and not a false premise, should have minimal affect in the audible range (and even then only above 10-20,000 Hz). I suppose… the electrical affects could have some significance (i.e. harmonics) in the audible band but not one I would get my underwear in a wad over. The graphs are a nice touch and show that each cable marketing argument has value (much of the affect is in the audible band). I did not like the fact this was a text book paper (no real measurements just cut and paste). I have been inundated recently with articles and papers written by academics, they seldom have much value in real world situations.
The formulas in the article are not what I would have used in an AC system for inductive reactance or capacitive reactance. They are simple, BUT frequency dependant so the cables performance will be affected by the capacitance and the inductance of the cable. The quality of the preamp is an issue too since it only puts out milliamps, how the preamps outputs react to the combined impedance from the cable and amplifier input stage is the real question in my mind.
The article is interesting and it has technical merit, BUT it is a persuasionary article and has zero scientific value because of its bias. I don’t know why cables get everyone in a tizzy, they either make a sonic difference or they don’t. If you hear a difference buy the one that gives the best presentation, and meets your budget. If you don’t hear a difference then buy the one that suits your needs and budget.
I read an on line article recently that was very interesting on cable insulation. The author felt the insulation used in a cable WAS important since it is the insulation (dielectric) in a capacitor that determines its charge/discharge time as well as its capacity (in farads). This was rather thought provoking to me.
06-02-2005, 08:57 PM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
is it possible that the limits of human hearing and retention might play a role in the a/b testing being what some may call flawed. hearing is a sense that maybe cant be easily explained or justified in a a/b test
I once read somewhere that the human brain can only remember, in the context of doing a hearing comparison, for about 8 seconds.....
EG. When comparing two sets of speaker cables. You would have to listen to the two speaker cables no more than 8 seconds apart with everything else being equal to reliably notice a difference.
EG. When comparing two sets of speaker cables. You would have to listen to the two speaker cables no more than 8 seconds apart with everything else being equal to reliably notice a difference.
hey - who wants to start a thread on siffeneing caps?? [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]
06-02-2005, 10:33 PM
#45
Goalie Man
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,412
hey brandon you are right on, if you look at archive photos of the apollo befor landing and check where the moon in relation to the earth and sun are, then x reference to the time and date, and "BINGO" the shadows from the sun are in the wrong place!!! kind of like seeing moss growing on the south side of a tree in vancover. i have way to much time on my hands sometimes. lol
06-03-2005, 12:59 PM
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by SweetnLow91SC:
^^^ Or how can you say it sound the same??
^^^ Or how can you say it sound the same??
"Hey everyone, buy our stuff! It's mundane!"
That's just not doing it for me [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
06-03-2005, 03:47 PM
#48
Originally posted by Dukk:
I love wire discussions. They are better than amp discussions IMO.
Brandon, Mike, Kevin, others - show me one documented case where in a double blind test someone could tell the difference. I only want one and then I will shut up (well, no I won't but I'll concede on the wire issue)
I love wire discussions. They are better than amp discussions IMO.
Brandon, Mike, Kevin, others - show me one documented case where in a double blind test someone could tell the difference. I only want one and then I will shut up (well, no I won't but I'll concede on the wire issue)
Well, my wife has very sensitive hearing compared to mine, and I couldn't really tell a difference, but she heard a big difference. It was as close to an A-B comparison as can be as I had both sets of wire run to the speakers and there was about a 10 minute waiting period while I swapped out the wires.
The interesting part is that she thought that the work I was putting into making these cables...and the mess in the house...was a giant pain in the *** and waste of time. So for her to actually admit to hearing a difference...I believe it.
06-03-2005, 04:28 PM
#49
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,242
Originally posted by pusnboob:
I had both sets of wire run to the speakers and there was about a 10 minute waiting period while I swapped out the wires.[/QB]
I had both sets of wire run to the speakers and there was about a 10 minute waiting period while I swapped out the wires.[/QB]
Could she still hear a difference had the change been done in a second?
Would she still hear a differece had you not actually changed wires, just made her think so?
The brain is funny when it comes to sound.
06-03-2005, 05:03 PM
#50
[quote]Originally posted by JRace:
Would she still hear a differece had you not actually changed wires, just made her think so?
The brain is funny when it comes to sound.
Have you ever replaced old speakers with a different brand and heard a difference? Did your brains' acoustical memory remember how the old speakers sounded?
I don't believe her reaction would have been as strong had she barely heard a difference. The point I'm trying to make here is that a barely audible difference to one persons ears can be a blatent difference to someone with more sensitve hearing...someone who say didn't blow their brains out with a walkman for 5 years...attend loud concerts year after year...drive around with a ridiculously loud system in their car everyday...in my case, work construction for 20 years etc..
[ June 03, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: pusnboob ]
Would she still hear a differece had you not actually changed wires, just made her think so?
The brain is funny when it comes to sound.
I don't believe her reaction would have been as strong had she barely heard a difference. The point I'm trying to make here is that a barely audible difference to one persons ears can be a blatent difference to someone with more sensitve hearing...someone who say didn't blow their brains out with a walkman for 5 years...attend loud concerts year after year...drive around with a ridiculously loud system in their car everyday...in my case, work construction for 20 years etc..
[ June 03, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: pusnboob ]
