Amps : Will it make a difference?
01-16-2004, 04:46 PM
#11
So you are telling all of us now that two amps with the same power ratings are going to sound the same? even if the internal crossover are not used. Sorry, beg to differ, they sound different, or do we all buy the exact same brand.
Or do you believe that different type of circuit topology or different tolerance componentry and build levels have nothing to do with sound quality. You are telling me that you can take the "best" cd player and wire it through the "worst" amplifier to a set of speakers and it will sound the same as the "best" cd player wired through the "best" amplifier to the same speakers in the same vehicle. Or is there a difference now in sq that I guess the magic amp dust must be responsible for! Maybe I as a dealer have the luxury of trying different things for customers to get them what they want and need, instead of pronouncing this amp is the best.
Or do you believe that different type of circuit topology or different tolerance componentry and build levels have nothing to do with sound quality. You are telling me that you can take the "best" cd player and wire it through the "worst" amplifier to a set of speakers and it will sound the same as the "best" cd player wired through the "best" amplifier to the same speakers in the same vehicle. Or is there a difference now in sq that I guess the magic amp dust must be responsible for! Maybe I as a dealer have the luxury of trying different things for customers to get them what they want and need, instead of pronouncing this amp is the best.
01-16-2004, 04:52 PM
#12
50 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 327
power rating doesnt mean anything.. actual power output does though.. take two amps hook them up a sub and hook that up to a oscope and match the gains so they are both sending out a clean signal and match the power output and I can guarantee you wont hear a diffrence.. at least I dont know anyone that can hear the diffrence between 2 identical signals. 
01-16-2004, 05:11 PM
#15
And the power difference makes a difference in bottom end, yes agree to that, spl changes so our perception of sound changes, what I am refering to is top end, maybe I should have been a little more clear. I just replaced a 75wx4 lightning amp (korean built) with a 50wx4 Eclipse amp (US built) and did it ever sound different in the customers car. The Korean built amp was definitely the larger of the two, with a larger current draw. So yes the Lightning played a little louder (still clean) but the Eclipse sounded far superior.
01-16-2004, 07:31 PM
#18
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 756
Its true, THD specs and stereo seperation figures are not going to give you a good indication of the actual sound reproduced.
Lets assume we have two amps, that were measured to have the identical power output at the same impedance. Lets assume this is a 2 channel amp, powering a pair of high end components in kick panels (focal utopias or something of the like). Lets also assume that the amps are both receiving a 4V signal from a deck with 24bit dacs.
If there was absolutely no difference in the amplified sound produced between the 100Wx2 Jensen for $99 and the $599 zapco of the same power output, why would anyone buy high-end amps? It would be completely senseless to buy expensive Brax, Audison, Xtant and Mcintosh amps. Why are there so many high end audio installs using these components?
There are features present in these amps that DO provide an advantage, such as 24db/oct crossovers, noisegates, phase correction devices etc.. however assume these devices are bypassed. Is there a difference in sound amplified between the Jensen and the Zapco? I would certainly be interested to hear the two.
I agree that the difference may not be terribly noticable, however there will be a difference none the less. IMO, there are other components that will make a MUCH more profound influence on sound quality than amplifiers. The largest would probably be the recorded material being played, secound would probably be the speakers being used and their installation, third would probably be the HU and so on..
Of course the install plays a huge roll in SQ, but assuming all aspects of the install are kept constant, how much of a difference would the amp actually make?
Perhaps a jensen amp is not a good example, but what about a bit more expensive amp, like a RF or a MTX amp?
It is certainly an interesting topic of conversation, and I honestly don't know how much of a difference there actually is. I bought an Xtant 603X, and my main reason for purchasing it was the various features it had to offer, in particular, it's ability to replace the need for multiple processing components. I was able to tell the difference between it, and the pair of soundstream rubicon amps it replaced, however, I don't believe this difference was the lower THD. Perhaps other features of the amp contributed to the improvement in sound quality.
Sorry that was so long, anyone else have any thoughts?
Lets assume we have two amps, that were measured to have the identical power output at the same impedance. Lets assume this is a 2 channel amp, powering a pair of high end components in kick panels (focal utopias or something of the like). Lets also assume that the amps are both receiving a 4V signal from a deck with 24bit dacs.
If there was absolutely no difference in the amplified sound produced between the 100Wx2 Jensen for $99 and the $599 zapco of the same power output, why would anyone buy high-end amps? It would be completely senseless to buy expensive Brax, Audison, Xtant and Mcintosh amps. Why are there so many high end audio installs using these components?
There are features present in these amps that DO provide an advantage, such as 24db/oct crossovers, noisegates, phase correction devices etc.. however assume these devices are bypassed. Is there a difference in sound amplified between the Jensen and the Zapco? I would certainly be interested to hear the two.
I agree that the difference may not be terribly noticable, however there will be a difference none the less. IMO, there are other components that will make a MUCH more profound influence on sound quality than amplifiers. The largest would probably be the recorded material being played, secound would probably be the speakers being used and their installation, third would probably be the HU and so on..
Of course the install plays a huge roll in SQ, but assuming all aspects of the install are kept constant, how much of a difference would the amp actually make?
Perhaps a jensen amp is not a good example, but what about a bit more expensive amp, like a RF or a MTX amp?
It is certainly an interesting topic of conversation, and I honestly don't know how much of a difference there actually is. I bought an Xtant 603X, and my main reason for purchasing it was the various features it had to offer, in particular, it's ability to replace the need for multiple processing components. I was able to tell the difference between it, and the pair of soundstream rubicon amps it replaced, however, I don't believe this difference was the lower THD. Perhaps other features of the amp contributed to the improvement in sound quality.
Sorry that was so long, anyone else have any thoughts?
01-17-2004, 12:43 AM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
<- Has actually taken RCs ABX direct comparison test. About 50 others took it that day too and nobody came remotely close to being able to convincingly tell the difference between the two amps tested and let me tell you more different in design they could not have been.
Why do people prefer different brands? For me and many like me it is features, flexibility, cosmetics, and brand preference. Obviously you will not see Brax, McIntosh, or whatever supposedly high end amp flavor of the month in my stable.
If one amp DID sound different than the other then one or both amps are doing their job poorly and distorting the signal through them.
Why do people prefer different brands? For me and many like me it is features, flexibility, cosmetics, and brand preference. Obviously you will not see Brax, McIntosh, or whatever supposedly high end amp flavor of the month in my stable.
If one amp DID sound different than the other then one or both amps are doing their job poorly and distorting the signal through them.
01-17-2004, 06:36 AM
#20
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
Since all amps have (slightly) different topology, since all manufacturers use different brands of transistors (chokes, caps, wire, solder), and since hand made or machine made products have unit to unit variations, I find it unreasonable to assume that all amplifiers add gain the same way. I therefore, I may logically assume that this will result in a different sounding product. It is unreasonable to assume all amps sound the same
Do amplifier manufacturers make their products to forward the state of the art of amplifier design or are they trying to make a buck. They will cut corners in their designs to meet or beat their competitor’s price point, but they still make good products.
Is there a difference? … Yes
Can you hear it? ….. maybe
Is it significant? …. If you hear it yes
Is it worth it to sell my Kenwood and buy a Sinfoni? …. Only if you buy me one too
If I can hear a difference why cant anyone pass RC’s test then … evidently a problem with the test or type of test, when they AB speakers people cant consistently pick out different sounding speakers… that doesnt mean they dont sound different it means you cant pick them out in an AB test.
Do amplifier manufacturers make their products to forward the state of the art of amplifier design or are they trying to make a buck. They will cut corners in their designs to meet or beat their competitor’s price point, but they still make good products.
Is there a difference? … Yes
Can you hear it? ….. maybe
Is it significant? …. If you hear it yes
Is it worth it to sell my Kenwood and buy a Sinfoni? …. Only if you buy me one too
If I can hear a difference why cant anyone pass RC’s test then … evidently a problem with the test or type of test, when they AB speakers people cant consistently pick out different sounding speakers… that doesnt mean they dont sound different it means you cant pick them out in an AB test.
