Dave MacKinnon

In-farging-credulous.

Some engineer makes a claim that if you equalize the output of two amps, match their noise and distortion levels, match their output levels and negate any turn-on and turn-off problems that you end up with 'proof' that all amps sound the same.

For the last time, this is the most inane, dumb-witted, scientifically immature test ever derived to compare anything.

Imagine strapped two dragsters together and sending them down the track? I bet the finish pretty close to each other.

Why not glue two golf ***** together and see which one flies further.

I thought I posted this before, but if not, I'll do it again. I spent an hour at the dB Drag finals talking to Mark Eldridge (one of richards biggest supporters) about this very topic.

We went on and one about how you can't tell the difference, then explained the test procedure. I started laughing when he told me how the amps were 'matched' to each other in every aspect. What the heck kind of comparison is that? let's compare speakers, but only use two of the same models? What the ????

So, just to prove my point / case, I asked Mark a very simple question.

"If you took two different amplifiers out of their boxes, set them up on an ABX switch, and level matched them at 1kHz, would you be able to tell the difference between those amps?"

He answered with an emphatic "Yes, of course. There are minute differences in frequency response that give everything it's own sonic character. In the amp test, Richard negates those differences with a 1/3 octave equalizer".

I really wish you could have seen the smile on my face guys.. I was so happy it almost seemed rude.

Now, their point is that you can 'make' almost any two amps sound the same, but out of the box they just don't.

You can attribute it to topology, to frequency response, to damping factor or to anything else that you think of.

Richards friend confirmed that all amps sound different. In the 'never happens in nature' situation of the Amplifier Challenge, you can't tell them apart, but when is that going to happen?

Let's take Tim Baillie Regal and swap out the amps and see how it performs. Or how about something from Wade, or Mini Steve.

In fact, I challenge anyone who owns a shop to swap out one amp for another brand in a good system and tell me if they don't hear a difference.

I don't really understand why so many of you choose to 'follow the flock' when it comes to these simple concepts. Dukk, of all people, who has some experience, should have already experienced this for himself. I'll concede that the difference between audio cables isn't as obvious

Don't just think about things guys, go try them.

Furthermore, the test should include turn-on and off noise. You guys have to live with it in your system. You don't all have 1/3 or 1/6 octave eq's in your systems, so why include that? And as for noise and distortion matching, I just ain't going near that!

Paul Niwranski

Dave - should we ever meet I would be happy to discuss this over a beer. For now let me tell you my experience and you can feel free to citique it.

The test was conducted by Garry Springgay formerly of Korbon Trading (at the time) now of Rockford Tempe. First off I would put my nuts on the table that Garry would never give anything but the straight ****. But anyways.

The gear was laid on a table, all cable runs were short and plainly visible. There was a new Rockford CD player(a hint to how long ago this was), a Rockford Punch40 and an Alpine bipolar amp on the table, along with the ABX box. Plainly visible speaker leads went to a pair of Paradigm Studio towers, ie nice home speakers.

The context of the test was interesting - I guess at that time RF's biggest amp competition was Alpine in the US (go figure) and what they found the main reason for that was people considered Alpine amps a SQ amplifier while an RF was just a bass amp. I digress.

For those who do not know the test, a CD of jazzy type music is spun up and first you hear AmpA for a few seconds, then AmpB for a few seconds, and then a button is pushed on the ABX box, it instantly selects one of the two randomly and you hear that one. So really all you have to do is decide if the 'new' sound is the same or different to the sound you heard just seconds before. Simple eh? Incidentally, the operator of the ABX does not know which one is chosen and the box prints off the list after the test is over.

SO everyone goes through the exercise and we see scores from 20%-65%. Now being a choice of 2 you would figure 50% the mean right so statistically nobody could tell worth a damn.

People were then invited up to the table to inspect the gear for any of these 'mods' you hear about and what did we find: the two amps being compared that day were the Alpine and the RF CD PLAYER'S BUILT IN AMP!! We were all stunned.


SO, please, where was the trickery? [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] There wasn't an EQ or crossover even in the room let alone in the signal chain. The music was full range Jazz. The volume was comfortable and loud enough to hear dynamics.

Garbage suggested over the years:

1) Speakers/cables/cd player were so poor that there was no hope of hearing a difference. Yeah ok..

2) The 'amps' were internally modified. As I recall one of the dealers was actually asked to bring the Alpine from their store and I cannot say 100% for the CD player but lets get real..

3) All we proved is an Alpine amp sounds like a Rockford CD player. This is 100% true I suppose but that's kind of a narrow view..

4) 50+ people were all part of mass hypnosis. About the only thing that could be true.


But HEY I'm not saying we should all run Jensen or something. Why? Um, inflexible, unreliable, damn ugly, etc. Just don't tell me it sounds bad..

Paul Niwranski

Oh yeah, one more thing.. I used to sell amps because 'one sounds better than the other' before I took the test too. It was hard to accept since as John stated it all sounds so reasonable that they would. I suppose if I had never been in the chair I would still support that side.

BUT I have YET to hear anyone argue the 'amps sound different' side that has actually taken the test. Everyone I argue with has NEVER been in the chair listening for themselves and I guess the thousands that have just all had ****ty hearing eh?

Dave MacKinnon

Dukk, if you can beleive it, I have already heard that story. I think the test was designed to show off the the capabilities of the head unit rather than the difference between the amps, but it proves a point none the less.

I'd never go on record as saying that most good amps sound good. I have tested SO many from all spectrums of the industry.. it's almost scary. The good ones though, PPI, Tube Drive, Audison, Zapco and one or two others I have forgotten about by now all sounded very very similar. In fact, I remember going back and forth between my Esoteric Audio E7056 and I think a Kicker three or four times to make out the difference between the two. The difference was, with my Esoteric, the vocal image was the size of a ping-pong ball, and with the Kicker it was the size of a soft-ball. Stunningly impressive for both amps.

I have also tested amps that, well, I had to go back to the reference amp to make sure that a speaker wasn't blown. Bad...

It's a matter of percentages.. Imaging building an engine. You can use the stock parts, or you can upgrade the intake and use a K&N filter. You can clean all the flashing off any internal surfaces of the intake and exhaust pathways and port match the intake and exhaust. I'm not talking about reshaping or oversized valves or anything, just maximizing the factory design. But, each little improvement adds up to create something that 'feels' better than a simple slapped-together production line engine.

In terms of audio, it is my opinion that each component is more important, as any weak link causes a permanent degradation of the signal that can not be restored. When calculating noise in a system (this is from my electronics training), the first stage or noise source has the highest weighting. I forget the details now, it's been a long time.

Of all my rants (and I have a few), I stand behind the fact that speakers are the most important part of an audio system. Imagine a Denon head unit, Audioquest cabling, Audison amplifiers and Sparkomatic wizzer-coned 6x9s. It just isn't going to be pretty.

Dukk, I think that you will agree that Richards amp challenge pretty much negates any chance of being able to discern one amp from another, right?

The odds change when you pull amps straight out of their boxes and let them loose.

Once I get my new speakers, I am hoping to have some prominent members of this forum over for a little education evening where we will listen to amps and cables... I need a little while to get it all together, and some money for the speakers..