Amps : Will it make a difference?
01-17-2004, 09:45 PM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
I know Springay and all the other guys at Korbon, have since I got started in all this about 16 years ago... Trust me, they didn't bother cheating, far too much of a waste of time.
Plus, there are no 'settings' really to make things sound different. You need equalization, and resistor/cap circuits. The sole purpose of that test was to show that the Rockford Head units sounded great.
Plus, there are no 'settings' really to make things sound different. You need equalization, and resistor/cap circuits. The sole purpose of that test was to show that the Rockford Head units sounded great.
01-18-2004, 01:32 AM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
^ Not at all. Garry never gave the spin that one should use onboard power in lieu of an amp or that the deck had a kickass amp. You weren't there, it did not go down that way.
Chris - at that time Alpine was considered a 'Sound Quality' amp. This was back when Todd Matsubara was hammering everyone on the circuit with his TBird. Mosfets were still considered a lower class output and that was what RF was into.
Cujo - first gen RF CD players were very spartan. Bass/treble was the run of the "eq" capabilities and the 'sub out' never even had a low pass xover on it. The reason you bought an RF CD player in those days is it would damn near play a CD put in upside down and the 2.8 volt RMS 50ohm outputs (sure as hell wasn't cuz they looked good [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img] ). Similarly the Alpine amp had all of lp/full/hp on it and it was on 'full'. It really was no bull**** - as Dave said, if you ever knew the Korbon crew at the time they would never invest time in bull****. They didn't need to - they shot straight and had huge credibility because of it.
Dave, I will 'allow' that I was more concerned with how the amps sounded freq response wise than how they imaged.
Still, as I see it, I appear to be the only forum member to ever take the test regardless of who conducted it. That's too bad. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
Chris - at that time Alpine was considered a 'Sound Quality' amp. This was back when Todd Matsubara was hammering everyone on the circuit with his TBird. Mosfets were still considered a lower class output and that was what RF was into.
Cujo - first gen RF CD players were very spartan. Bass/treble was the run of the "eq" capabilities and the 'sub out' never even had a low pass xover on it. The reason you bought an RF CD player in those days is it would damn near play a CD put in upside down and the 2.8 volt RMS 50ohm outputs (sure as hell wasn't cuz they looked good [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img] ). Similarly the Alpine amp had all of lp/full/hp on it and it was on 'full'. It really was no bull**** - as Dave said, if you ever knew the Korbon crew at the time they would never invest time in bull****. They didn't need to - they shot straight and had huge credibility because of it.
Dave, I will 'allow' that I was more concerned with how the amps sounded freq response wise than how they imaged.
Still, as I see it, I appear to be the only forum member to ever take the test regardless of who conducted it. That's too bad. [img]graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]
01-18-2004, 09:13 AM
#33
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,783
I wish that I couldn't hear the difference between amps too Chadxton. [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img]
I think that judging an amplifier's ability to image would be very difficult for most people. Most cars don't image well enough to tell the difference between 2 amps. With a well setup home system, most people would notice easier.
I have one example to share with people comparing amplifiers.
A while ago, I had a Bryston 3B and a multi channel Sony home theater amplifier in my home system. The Bryston was rated at 120 watts/ch into 8 ohms, the Sony amp bridge into 2 channels was rated at 220 watts/ch into 8 ohms. The Bryston blew away the Sony amplifier in SQ obviously, but it also had the most punch and slam. Having a more powerful amplifier doesn't make it more dynamic.
I've heard many really high end amplifiers over the years, and they all had distinct characters to their sound.
To all the doubters, have you ever had the hair on the back of your neck stand up listing to a really good system? If you have, the system was probably accurate enough to be able to hear the difference in amplifiers?
Adam
I think that judging an amplifier's ability to image would be very difficult for most people. Most cars don't image well enough to tell the difference between 2 amps. With a well setup home system, most people would notice easier.
I have one example to share with people comparing amplifiers.
A while ago, I had a Bryston 3B and a multi channel Sony home theater amplifier in my home system. The Bryston was rated at 120 watts/ch into 8 ohms, the Sony amp bridge into 2 channels was rated at 220 watts/ch into 8 ohms. The Bryston blew away the Sony amplifier in SQ obviously, but it also had the most punch and slam. Having a more powerful amplifier doesn't make it more dynamic.
I've heard many really high end amplifiers over the years, and they all had distinct characters to their sound.
To all the doubters, have you ever had the hair on the back of your neck stand up listing to a really good system? If you have, the system was probably accurate enough to be able to hear the difference in amplifiers?
Adam
01-18-2004, 11:37 AM
#34
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 550
It's funny that every so often we have this very same discussion.
A while back RC made a CD where he tested a Jensen, a JL Audio amp, and a undisclosed high end tube amp. The CD is a recording of material played through each respective amplifier. Coils were used to reduce the output to a level where they can be recorded. So essentially, what your hearing is what you would hear if you were at Autosound 2000's lab.
I have a copy of the CD and when I listened to the CD, I did not hear any differences between the amplifiers. Now I realize this isn't identical to the ABX test but if their is a difference then it should very apparent.
A while back RC made a CD where he tested a Jensen, a JL Audio amp, and a undisclosed high end tube amp. The CD is a recording of material played through each respective amplifier. Coils were used to reduce the output to a level where they can be recorded. So essentially, what your hearing is what you would hear if you were at Autosound 2000's lab.
I have a copy of the CD and when I listened to the CD, I did not hear any differences between the amplifiers. Now I realize this isn't identical to the ABX test but if their is a difference then it should very apparent.
01-18-2004, 11:59 AM
#35
500 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 550
Originally posted by PEI330Ci:
I wish that I couldn't hear the difference between amps too Chadxton. [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img]
I think that judging an amplifier's ability to image would be very difficult for most people. Most cars don't image well enough to tell the difference between 2 amps. With a well setup home system, most people would notice easier.
I have one example to share with people comparing amplifiers.
A while ago, I had a Bryston 3B and a multi channel Sony home theater amplifier in my home system. The Bryston was rated at 120 watts/ch into 8 ohms, the Sony amp bridge into 2 channels was rated at 220 watts/ch into 8 ohms. The Bryston blew away the Sony amplifier in SQ obviously, but it also had the most punch and slam. Having a more powerful amplifier doesn't make it more dynamic.
I've heard many really high end amplifiers over the years, and they all had distinct characters to their sound.
To all the doubters, have you ever had the hair on the back of your neck stand up listing to a really good system? If you have, the system was probably accurate enough to be able to hear the difference in amplifiers?
Adam
I wish that I couldn't hear the difference between amps too Chadxton. [img]graemlins/freak.gif[/img]
I think that judging an amplifier's ability to image would be very difficult for most people. Most cars don't image well enough to tell the difference between 2 amps. With a well setup home system, most people would notice easier.
I have one example to share with people comparing amplifiers.
A while ago, I had a Bryston 3B and a multi channel Sony home theater amplifier in my home system. The Bryston was rated at 120 watts/ch into 8 ohms, the Sony amp bridge into 2 channels was rated at 220 watts/ch into 8 ohms. The Bryston blew away the Sony amplifier in SQ obviously, but it also had the most punch and slam. Having a more powerful amplifier doesn't make it more dynamic.
I've heard many really high end amplifiers over the years, and they all had distinct characters to their sound.
To all the doubters, have you ever had the hair on the back of your neck stand up listing to a really good system? If you have, the system was probably accurate enough to be able to hear the difference in amplifiers?
Adam
When you were comparing the Bryston and the Sony, you made reference to their power ratings. What does power have to do with SQ??? If your comparing SQ, then the SPL level that your auditioning at should be indentical. If one is louder than the other (even slightly), chances are you'll perceive it to sound better. Now I don't know how you compared these amps but I hardly think that you were very stringent in the setup and process.
You said that you heard many high end amplifiers over the years... Did you hear them with the same speakers and program material??? The "distinctive sound" that you heard has to do with the speakers and not the amps.
01-18-2004, 12:38 PM
#36
Yankee
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,599
Speakers are the MOST important part of any system
Of course we focus on the amplifier (and occasionally capacitors) which has the easiest job in the system to simply add gain. Silly of us but what the hey, were audio geeks, or at least Dukk is.
I think the flaw in ABX is the fact that the listener never becomes familiar with either amp (it can take me quite a while to find the subtle differences). My problem is I do hear differences but it takes a while sometimes to ID the differences.
01-19-2004, 08:43 PM
#37
Out of the box, contrary to what I said before, amps can sound different. A Pyramid is not going to sound like a Brax or a Zapco...but a Brax and a Zapco will sound relatively the same. I believe it has something to do with the way they are designed and the components used in the amp...Does a Zapco with Burr Brown outputs sound different than a bone stock Zapco? Sure it does.
Wow, RC's challenge is a joke...I never really read anything about it, I thought it was just going to be a straight up drag race between 2 amps. Apperently not the case.
Wow, RC's challenge is a joke...I never really read anything about it, I thought it was just going to be a straight up drag race between 2 amps. Apperently not the case.
01-20-2004, 06:25 AM
#38
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
RC's test fools everyone........well, almost everyone. It's over controlled. Most people do not understand the test. The varible in the test is so bogus, no one will ever win. It is also not reflective of a real world situation in Joe-shmoe's car where there are all kinds of varibles, likely including a sub par installation.
To me, the most over whelming factor with regards to what your car will sound like is the INSTALLATION. You can buy gear from us or Gemsen anyone else and at the end of the day, a $5 Radioshack sponsored install might smash your install performance.
INSTALLATION IS WHERE IT'S ALL AT
Find yourself a good installer or at least learn as much as you can, develop a plan and talk to people in the know about it BEFORE running off into a world of disappointment.
To me, the most over whelming factor with regards to what your car will sound like is the INSTALLATION. You can buy gear from us or Gemsen anyone else and at the end of the day, a $5 Radioshack sponsored install might smash your install performance.
INSTALLATION IS WHERE IT'S ALL AT
Find yourself a good installer or at least learn as much as you can, develop a plan and talk to people in the know about it BEFORE running off into a world of disappointment.
01-20-2004, 08:42 AM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
At least Tom understands the purprose of my rant. Wether the difference between an ARC, Brax, Kicker, Zapco or whatever is huge, noticeable or exists at all, Richards test will never reveal what makes an amp an amp.
For example... How many of you compete? How would you like turn-on thumps and turn-off pops? How many points would it cost you? Does that matter? Yep, so why isn't it in the test.
His test supports his stated hypothesis, claiming you can't hear the difference between different designs and topologies. Wether or not that is true, it in no way is a comparison of the performance of one amplifier to another.
For example... How many of you compete? How would you like turn-on thumps and turn-off pops? How many points would it cost you? Does that matter? Yep, so why isn't it in the test.
His test supports his stated hypothesis, claiming you can't hear the difference between different designs and topologies. Wether or not that is true, it in no way is a comparison of the performance of one amplifier to another.
01-20-2004, 11:20 AM
#40
resident ass
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,507
The issue in question is not turn-off pop, or reliability, or power, or anything other than the sonic abilites of amplifiers while they are running. Admittedly I have not had as much experience as many of you with this, but I have a taste for the esoteric and I have ran a lot of weird **** in my life. I have noticed no sound difference. In fact, I once swapped out a Zapco Competition amp in favor of a Punch40 from the mid 90s (everything else remained the same) and didn't notice any difference other than the fact that the Punch had way more *****. I will never buy an amp based on how it apparently sounds. I will buy it based on power, looks, flexibility, reliability, features and, turn-on/turn-off noise, yes even exclusivity.
On the other hand I love those expensive, exclusive amps so if poeple want to buy them cause they sound different, and in so doing keep those manufacturers putting out their great products, then by all means do.
On the other hand I love those expensive, exclusive amps so if poeple want to buy them cause they sound different, and in so doing keep those manufacturers putting out their great products, then by all means do.
