Horns and other stuff
06-22-2003, 12:33 AM
#11
horns are great, for dynamics, a nightmare to install. They take a lil more work to get sounding good compared to conventional tweeters. I would definately using a high efficienct midbass and a separate midbrange. you will be able to xover your horns down to about 900-1khz. it will be tough to find a good midbass driver that plays up to that with authority.
Thats one draw back to horns you need atleast a 5 or 6 EFFICIENT driver for a dedicated midrange so your almost stumped to get a 3 way setup. now you can compensate for lower efficient drivers with more power however you will get into problems with matching output, with the horns and the midbass/midrange. unless you have heavy processing and a good eq you may miss out what kind of dynamics horns have to offer.
Another problem is finding drivers with higher efficiency. Kind of tough but if you got the money there are a few really nice midrange speakers like the focal audiom 5 and 6w's. on a lower budget PHL's may work or even some scan speaks.
your gonna want to try to move your horns as far back as possible and as far wide as possible, the best way to find best imaging is move the horns around the car and see what type of soundstage you create.
You can get really creative and do the horns in the engine bay like Mark Eldridge i believe he did it, and it apparently worked great.
Kriston
[ June 22, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: battyrida ]
Thats one draw back to horns you need atleast a 5 or 6 EFFICIENT driver for a dedicated midrange so your almost stumped to get a 3 way setup. now you can compensate for lower efficient drivers with more power however you will get into problems with matching output, with the horns and the midbass/midrange. unless you have heavy processing and a good eq you may miss out what kind of dynamics horns have to offer.
Another problem is finding drivers with higher efficiency. Kind of tough but if you got the money there are a few really nice midrange speakers like the focal audiom 5 and 6w's. on a lower budget PHL's may work or even some scan speaks.
your gonna want to try to move your horns as far back as possible and as far wide as possible, the best way to find best imaging is move the horns around the car and see what type of soundstage you create.
You can get really creative and do the horns in the engine bay like Mark Eldridge i believe he did it, and it apparently worked great.
Kriston
[ June 22, 2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: battyrida ]
06-22-2003, 01:12 PM
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
woaahhh...where did all that come from??? 
IMO, Installing horns under the dash is a lot easier than building a set of kicks. You bolt them up, wire the terminals and off you go...no aiming, no fiberglass, no MDF to work with...just a few straps and off you go. Instant soundstage... [img]graemlins/jammin.gif[/img]
Why do you recomend running a 3 way front end with horns?? Horns play over a much broader frequency range than any conventional tweet, so there is no more need for a dedicated midbass, than in a regular 2 way component set. Don't tell me there are no nice sounding 2 way component sets?? Some horns will play clean down to 650Hz. with no problem, most 6.5" speakers play that high, and there are a bunch or 8" drivers that will do the same.
Sensitivity issues are not a big issue as long as you stick to the recomended power ratio's 1:3:5. A bigger midbass will definitely work better, but is not manditory, just ask Joe Black
Another advantage with a 2 way front end is you reduce point sourcing, and have one less xover point in the crucial frequency range. Sure 3 way sets have advantages as well, but they definitely are not the magical answer...
The heavy processing is another myth about horns in general, they require no more processing than a regular component set. They do require a different train of thought when tuning though, which is why so many people dont't particularily like them. When they were relatively new on the competition circut guys were playing them far too low which lead to the "honky" reputation...
In any event, horns are a wonderful thing when installed/tuned properly, in either a 2 way or 3 way setup, either way can work extremely well. [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]
IMO, Installing horns under the dash is a lot easier than building a set of kicks. You bolt them up, wire the terminals and off you go...no aiming, no fiberglass, no MDF to work with...just a few straps and off you go. Instant soundstage... [img]graemlins/jammin.gif[/img]
Why do you recomend running a 3 way front end with horns?? Horns play over a much broader frequency range than any conventional tweet, so there is no more need for a dedicated midbass, than in a regular 2 way component set. Don't tell me there are no nice sounding 2 way component sets?? Some horns will play clean down to 650Hz. with no problem, most 6.5" speakers play that high, and there are a bunch or 8" drivers that will do the same.
Sensitivity issues are not a big issue as long as you stick to the recomended power ratio's 1:3:5. A bigger midbass will definitely work better, but is not manditory, just ask Joe Black
Another advantage with a 2 way front end is you reduce point sourcing, and have one less xover point in the crucial frequency range. Sure 3 way sets have advantages as well, but they definitely are not the magical answer...
The heavy processing is another myth about horns in general, they require no more processing than a regular component set. They do require a different train of thought when tuning though, which is why so many people dont't particularily like them. When they were relatively new on the competition circut guys were playing them far too low which lead to the "honky" reputation...
In any event, horns are a wonderful thing when installed/tuned properly, in either a 2 way or 3 way setup, either way can work extremely well. [img]graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]
06-23-2003, 05:57 AM
#13
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
It's all in the install. Horns cannot be just thrown up under the dash and expected to work brilliantly. That's how they got a bad rap in the first place. Also, properly installed horns do not require massive EQ-ing. All that EQ-ing [img]graemlins/bs.gif[/img] came from crap install work where the morons thought they could fix it all with an EQ.
IF you are firing them down, is there carpet on your floor that you are expecting to get reflections off of??
IF you are firing them down, is there carpet on your floor that you are expecting to get reflections off of??
06-23-2003, 06:57 AM
#14
50 Watt CAFz'r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 132
^ Well, under the dash im not expecting them to work brilliantly, the horns wouldnt be the main speakers in the system, just looking to add a little something.
So in your opinion what do I have to properly install some horns so they dont need massive EQing. Face them in a certain direction? Use certain frequencies?
Oh, and at this point theres no carpet, just metal floor board. A thin carpet maybe be going in sometime in the future and I know that the carpet will absorb some of the sound rather than reflect it.
[ June 23, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Fonzy ]
So in your opinion what do I have to properly install some horns so they dont need massive EQing. Face them in a certain direction? Use certain frequencies?
Oh, and at this point theres no carpet, just metal floor board. A thin carpet maybe be going in sometime in the future and I know that the carpet will absorb some of the sound rather than reflect it.
[ June 23, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Fonzy ]
06-23-2003, 08:04 AM
#15
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Posts: n/a
Originally posted by dawgsbreakfast:
It's all in the install. Horns cannot be just thrown up under the dash and expected to work brilliantly
It's all in the install. Horns cannot be just thrown up under the dash and expected to work brilliantly
06-24-2003, 05:04 AM
#16
which horns can play cleanly down to 650? please tell me?
If you gonna xover your midbass all the way up to 650 your gonna have to get some pretty spectacular midbass's. now you tell me your midbass "should be around 70-80 hz no? maybe a little lower now if you xover your midbass higher your gonna loose alot of lowend output, however if you xover your midbass too low you will get into localization, now you can probably get away with running a 6 on axis and xover it low and have a nice sounding 2 way, but from my experiences with horns, a good set of midranges really do help out.
ive heard alot of horn cars sound like total crap because the installer thought that they imaged well straight outa the box..... ERRR. not really, horns do take a lil more time to get sounding as good as a conventional comp setup... some people swear by them some people cant stand horns, what ive found is that they take up alot of room and they are hard to install and to get sounding proper.
thus ditching my horns for conventional components.
Kriston
If you gonna xover your midbass all the way up to 650 your gonna have to get some pretty spectacular midbass's. now you tell me your midbass "should be around 70-80 hz no? maybe a little lower now if you xover your midbass higher your gonna loose alot of lowend output, however if you xover your midbass too low you will get into localization, now you can probably get away with running a 6 on axis and xover it low and have a nice sounding 2 way, but from my experiences with horns, a good set of midranges really do help out.
ive heard alot of horn cars sound like total crap because the installer thought that they imaged well straight outa the box..... ERRR. not really, horns do take a lil more time to get sounding as good as a conventional comp setup... some people swear by them some people cant stand horns, what ive found is that they take up alot of room and they are hard to install and to get sounding proper.
thus ditching my horns for conventional components.
Kriston
06-24-2003, 05:20 AM
#17
1000 Watt CAFz'r
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,649
Install the horns under the dash, as far back as possible and the horn throats as close to the outside of the vehicle as possible. The horn should be tight up against the under side of the dash (no gaps ..........and you need to have an underside of the dash BTW as it's an extension of the horn). They also need to be secured tight such that you could grab them and move your whole vehicle with them. That's a start. BTW, I'm definitely not a horn expert as I've only gone through one set. IF you check on CARSOUND and do a search, there's a pile of knowledge regarding horns to be flipped through.
Some people love the sounds from a horn driver. With a good installation, they can sound great. But it's something you have to decide for yourself. Their install in every vehicle is different and will sound different. Some vehicles it will work while others may sound like crap regardless of what you try and do.
Best of luck..........
Some people love the sounds from a horn driver. With a good installation, they can sound great. But it's something you have to decide for yourself. Their install in every vehicle is different and will sound different. Some vehicles it will work while others may sound like crap regardless of what you try and do.
Best of luck..........
06-24-2003, 09:20 AM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Kriston
Veritas horns play down to 650Hz no problem, thats the recomended crossover frequency. Pro-Tech horns played lower than that. USD's, ID V.2's, Illusion CH-1's all have recomended xover points of about 800Hz., and will play lower with a steeper slope. The ID mini's on the other hand won't play much below 1KHz., but that is a due to the smaller lense.
We could argue all day about the 2 way setup Vs. the 3 way, but I will say this...There are many IASCA/USAC world champions that have used the 2 way setup in thier vehicles back in the day when HLCD's were popular. In fact since you are in the TO area, just ask former champ Jamie E... From my understanding he used the Veritas 66 horns and Veritas 6" midbass down to 30Hz., with the subs attenuated just for effect. It's all in the install, 2 way set up's can be very effective.
Just as you have heard many HLCD installs sound like crap, I have heard many component type installs sound like crap, kickpannels take a just as much time to get sounding phenominal IMO, and they can be bulky and and cumbersome at times...Like I said in post above, tuning HLCD's is a different game, and thats why I think people tend to dislike HLCD's, they don't understand them...I find it a lot easier to tune HLCD's than trying to build and tune kickpannels...probably because I have owned about 5 sets now...and once you get it right the benifits far outwiegh the negatives IMO,
thus my reason for ditching comps and using the HLCD's... 
Veritas horns play down to 650Hz no problem, thats the recomended crossover frequency. Pro-Tech horns played lower than that. USD's, ID V.2's, Illusion CH-1's all have recomended xover points of about 800Hz., and will play lower with a steeper slope. The ID mini's on the other hand won't play much below 1KHz., but that is a due to the smaller lense.
We could argue all day about the 2 way setup Vs. the 3 way, but I will say this...There are many IASCA/USAC world champions that have used the 2 way setup in thier vehicles back in the day when HLCD's were popular. In fact since you are in the TO area, just ask former champ Jamie E...
From my understanding he used the Veritas 66 horns and Veritas 6" midbass down to 30Hz., with the subs attenuated just for effect. It's all in the install, 2 way set up's can be very effective.Just as you have heard many HLCD installs sound like crap, I have heard many component type installs sound like crap, kickpannels take a just as much time to get sounding phenominal IMO, and they can be bulky and and cumbersome at times...Like I said in post above, tuning HLCD's is a different game, and thats why I think people tend to dislike HLCD's, they don't understand them...I find it a lot easier to tune HLCD's than trying to build and tune kickpannels...probably because I have owned about 5 sets now...and once you get it right the benifits far outwiegh the negatives IMO,
thus my reason for ditching comps and using the HLCD's...
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